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-   -   High performance take off (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/613573-high-performance-take-off.html)

gearlever 20th Sep 2018 17:16

High performance take off
 
1.150m for an A320, not bad.....
Arabia A320 at Sharjah on Sep 18th 2018

er340790 20th Sep 2018 17:53

Especially when any tailwind component is taken into account..... :ugh:

fdr 21st Sep 2018 08:11

Yikes. Not the first time that it has been done... DC10F at PANC... but at least Air Arabia has been clean living and survived the whoops. Wonder at what point the crew picked up the hints that they were going in the wrong direction. The Airlines response may seem excessive, but it gets rid of the easy but gross error that occurred here.

DaveReidUK 21st Sep 2018 09:19


Originally Posted by fdr (Post 10254386)
Yikes. Not the first time that it has been done... DC10F at PANC

Not quite a parallel (npi), as unlike the Air Arabia the KAL at Anchorage didn't even make it as far as the intended runway, but mistakenly used one oriented at 80° to it.

Ironically, the light aircraft with which it collided had taxied all the way to the end of the latter 10,000' runway rather than electing to depart from an intersection.

OldLurker 21st Sep 2018 10:50

This flight (L9-111) departs about 1630 local – daytime – surely at least one of the pilots must have looked out of the window at lineup and said, or thought, "that looks a bit short"? Or is everything "heads-down" these days?

Although of course I've no evidence, I do wonder if there was bit of non-CRM taking place, rather like Tenerife but without the disaster. Junior co-pilot: "Aren't we headng the wrong way?" Captain with press-on-itis: "No, no, let's get out of here."

Doors to Automatic 21st Sep 2018 10:59

I am still trying to work out how this could possibly happen. This is a single runway airport in (I assume) good visibility. We are not talking Chicago O'Hare or Detroit Metro in the fog at night! Not only that but this airline is actually based there. Absolutely remarkable.

ZOOKER 21st Sep 2018 11:15

I wonder what the Aerodrome Controller was looking at?

DaveReidUK 21st Sep 2018 11:26

While there aren't enough data points on the FR24 plot to determine exactly where the A320 became airborne, the last point shown with WoW is around 300 meters short of the upwind piano keys with a groundspeed of 67 kts (subject to usual FR24 caveats).

KiloB 21st Sep 2018 15:29


Originally Posted by ZOOKER (Post 10254531)
I wonder what the Aerodrome Controller was looking at?

Years ago I (nearly) took part in one of these at HRE. A (then) TAP 707 taxied out and turned left instead of right at the intersection. That left about 2500ft available of the 15000ft runway. Initially I thought he was backtracking, but lots of jet blast was very obvious and lead to a quick radio call and a reset (and I presume some embarrassment on the Flight Deck.)

Hard to believe for those who know HRE, but it happened.

sabenaboy 21st Sep 2018 15:42


On Sep 19th 2018 Air Arabia instructed their pilots that all intersection departures were banned with immediate effect...
Very good example of a knee jerk reaction.

double_barrel 21st Sep 2018 16:08

But having made that error, how can they have got it into the air? Presumably the take off run was calculated for 3 times the distance that was actually available. I am sure I have read on here that you chaps don't thrash the thing unnecessarily but derate appropriately. So they realized early on, did some rapid mental arithmetic and decided to floor it ?!

WhatsaLizad? 21st Sep 2018 16:47

No problem.(sarcasm alert)
One time we only used about 3000' to lift off in a 777-200 full of pax with 10 hours of fuel. :}

CONSO 21st Sep 2018 21:44

Well if Viet airlines can do a max takeoff. .. :D


SigWit 21st Sep 2018 21:51


Originally Posted by double_barrel (Post 10254752)
But having made that error, how can they have got it into the air? Presumably the take off run was calculated for 3 times the distance that was actually available. I am sure I have read on here that you chaps don't thrash the thing unnecessarily but derate appropriately. So they realized early on, did some rapid mental arithmetic and decided to floor it ?!

Sure, but when deration happens it doesn't always mean you will use the full runway. Also, there are a lot of safety margins. Probably they just got lucky and cleared it just in time.

easymxp 22nd Sep 2018 00:45

Interesting I have seen a DVD related to their operations just a few weeks ago. It seems they always do intersections take offs and most of the times they tanker fuel from Sharja. Maybe this day they were lucky enough not to tanker or with a low load factor.

From FR24 I saw the coming back flight left on time, I think with the same crew. As for sure immediately after take off this mistake was clear to the crew, to the control and to the management, wouldn’t have been better send a standby crew to do the flight back? I think their mood was terrible.

PukinDog 22nd Sep 2018 02:11


Originally Posted by sabenaboy (Post 10254737)
Very good example of a knee jerk reaction.

Not much different than individual companies banning LAHSO (which most do) or a verbal confirmation/callout of compass/runway alignment on line-up after the ComAir 5191 accident in Kentucky back in 2006. Procedures are constantly being adjusted/amended after screw-ups that result in incidents/accidents/threats to safety and it has always been so in aviation. In fact, oversight authorities investigating them will demand it if a company's procedures or safety culture are found lacking. The "knee jerk" reaction is a blanket procedural change designed to prevent a recurrence with immediate effect, and sometimes it's entirely appropriate because it works and many spread industry-wide.

Obviously, the long-recommended, verbal confirmation/callout by the crew that a runway one is cleared to line-up on/cleared to T/O from coincides with the compass heading of the aircraft before applying power to help prevent taking off from the wrong runway either wasn't incorporated into this Company's procedures or adhered-to by the crew if it was. The simple procedure of having both pilots verbally confirm Rwy clearance vs compass heading before closing a line-up checklist is a final backstop, prevention measure against this sort of thing when SA has broken down. This recommendation was already written in passenger and crew blood, and it doesn't really matter if one calls it "knee-jerk" or not.

Sterile cockpit, approaching assigned altitude callouts, no circling approaches unless in VFR conditions, no side-stepping below 1,000' AGL, etc etc etc could all be said to have have roots in "knee jerk" reactions to incidents/accidents. It doesn't automatically mean they're the wrong answer.

llondel 22nd Sep 2018 02:22


Originally Posted by double_barrel (Post 10254752)
But having made that error, how can they have got it into the air? Presumably the take off run was calculated for 3 times the distance that was actually available. I am sure I have read on here that you chaps don't thrash the thing unnecessarily but derate appropriately. So they realized early on, did some rapid mental arithmetic and decided to floor it ?!

De-rating assumes they get to V1 with enough runway left to abort the takeoff and stop so they're not going to need all of it to get airborne (as it wasn't an A340). If their numbers had suggested that 10000ft was required for a V1 abort then they probably wouldn't have done an intersection departure in the first place.

Had they lost an engine then it would have gotten rather messy. It's possible that the approach of the end of the runway encouraged forward movement of the throttles to make sure.

Mr Angry from Purley 22nd Sep 2018 20:57

Taking off from the wrong runway at home base am i missing something

DaveReidUK 22nd Sep 2018 21:24


Originally Posted by Mr Angry from Purley (Post 10255769)
Taking off from the wrong runway at home base am i missing something

Well yes.

He took off from the intended runway. But after turning on to it in the wrong direction.

Private jet 22nd Sep 2018 21:52

If this had been a BA 747 taking a wrong turn at Joburg all the " there for the grace of God go I " types would be swarming all over this.


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