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[QUOTE=Alpine Flyer;10211832]Not wanting to say that can't be a factor but it would require at least a bigger mistake in setting up the take-off in the MCDU as the E-Jets will not accept empty take-off settings (defaulting to max thrust) and warn if the flap setting is different from the one set on the take-off data pages.
On the E170/190s, before takeoff, pressing the take-off config test button (as you enter the runway) will alert you "No Takeoff" if the data is not entered (also alerts you if your flaps setting and the settings input on the MCDU don't match). One possibility I was thinking was that the autothrottles may not have been armed correctly and didn't go into TOGA. Shouldn't have been a problem if the crew caught that early enough but left undetected a lot of runway was like used before the plane accelerated to V1. |
[QUOTE=1.3vso;10214755]
Originally Posted by Alpine Flyer
(Post 10211832)
Not wanting to say that can't be a factor but it would require at least a bigger mistake in setting up the take-off in the MCDU as the E-Jets will not accept empty take-off settings (defaulting to max thrust) and warn if the flap setting is different from the one set on the take-off data pages.
On the E170/190s, before takeoff, pressing the take-off config test button (as you enter the runway) will alert you "No Takeoff" if the data is not entered (also alerts you if your flaps setting and the settings input on the MCDU don't match). One possibility I was thinking was that the autothrottles may not have been armed correctly and didn't go into TOGA. Shouldn't have been a problem if the crew caught that early enough but left undetected a lot of runway was like used before the plane accelerated to V1. I fly the very same aircraft with that airline. Flight deck discipline is very high. From time to time one of us may forget to arm the autothrottle (not part of any checklist) but I have seen this no more than 3 times. I have nearly 2000 hrs in that type. I have been many times in MMDO, Durango, and it is really a treacherous airport to fly in. Usually conditions are VMC but in summer there are a lot of fast moving CBs and thunderstorms. Both Metar and Taf were not showing anyhing unusual but i have seen very sudden gusts and shifts in short final while the tower reported “calm”. The airport is in a flatland surrounded by a very tall montain range. |
Originally Posted by pattern_is_full
(Post 10213062)
As a reminder, a microburst after take-off put a Pan Am 727 into the ground from 150 feet altitude (Flt. 759, Kenner (New Orleans), 1982). No survivors. In a weird way, this flight was "lucky" if the microburst (if real - high probability) prevented it from getting significantly airborne, if at all. Of course, 36 years ago we were only just starting to get a handle on detecting and handling microburst threats.
______________________ Any followup on the original reports of engine failure? Was that just "fog of war?" If real, what are the odds it was caused by hail or rain ingestion from the same weather event? cf: take-off video. On the positive side, AvHerald quotes hospital as saying the captain is recovering from spinal surgery and can move arms and legs. :ok: |
Originally Posted by fisher22
(Post 10215391)
Mexico is still in prehistoric times when it comes to air traffic and weather technology and overall airport infrastructure, in places like Durango (or any other airport for that matter) for ATIS and METARs you'll have a dude looking out the window and guessing what the current conditions are (apart from basic wind/temp/pressure data). In this case I'm sure he saw some rain, estimated the cloud base and put it out on the report, any low level windhsear, microbursts and the like simply can't be detecte
Eveb the smallest airports with airline operations like Matamoros MMMT, Minatitlan MMMT, or Nuevo Laredo MMNL have more than acceptable survelliance equipment. Durango’s weather has always being treacherous. You have no idea and by the way you write, I really doubt you have left your home PC..... |
Originally Posted by Flugjung
(Post 10215592)
stop saying nonsense, I have flown in my airline all over Mexico, US, Central America and the Caribbean Eveb the smallest airports with airline operations like Matamoros MMMT, Minatitlan MMMT, or Nuevo Laredo MMNL have more than acceptable survelliance equipment. Durango’s weather has always being treacherous. You have no idea and by the way you write, I really doubt you have left your home PC..... |
Originally Posted by aterpster
(Post 10215640)
You airline pilots in Mexico and the Mexico ATC system are first rate with, of course, some exceptions. Having said that, as a "gringo" who lives in Southern California, I am afraid to go to Mexico for my safety, your first-rate pilots and ATC notwithstanding.
Back to Mexico's setup....suggest we await the investigation preliminary report to see what factors were found that need to be considered when analysing the outcome of this event. |
Originally Posted by Flugjung
(Post 10215592)
stop saying nonsense, I have flown in my airline all over Mexico, US, Central America and the Caribbean Eveb the smallest airports with airline operations like Matamoros MMMT, Minatitlan MMMT, or Nuevo Laredo MMNL have more than acceptable survelliance equipment. Durango’s weather has always being treacherous. You have no idea and by the way you write, I really doubt you have left your home PC..... I wrote what I wrote because I've seen it first hand, or are any of the airports you mentioned equipped with LLWAS? A microburst alert system? Terminal Doppler radar? What about AWOS, RVR measuring systems? Don't take it personal, but with the technology that exists today maybe the Mexican government should look into investing into better equipment so pilots and controllers are more aware of what's going on around them to keep accidents like this from happening. To say Mexican airports are equipped with state of the art weather measuring systems is just kidding ourselves. |
Originally Posted by fisher22
(Post 10215671)
Are we supposed to be impressed that you've flown to the Caribbean and Central America? Come on man, not on this forum. I wrote what I wrote because I've seen it first hand, or are any of the airports you mentioned equipped with LLWAS? A microburst alert system? Terminal Doppler radar? What about AWOS, RVR measuring systems? Don't take it personal, but with the technology that exists today maybe the Mexican government should look into investing into better equipment so pilots and controllers are more aware of what's going on around them to keep accidents like this from happening. To say Mexican airports are equipped with state of the art weather measuring systems is just kidding ourselves. I’m not trying to impress anybody, simply STOP writing NONSENSE. Saying facilities in Mexico are “prehistoric”, is one. Durango is a small airport with its most impirtant routes being to MEX and TIJ with Volaris and Aeromexico. BTW, ONLY the most important airports in the US have LLWAS , RVR, or Doppler radar. Those systems are expensive and are NOT worth the expense in arports with low traffic. |
Originally Posted by Willoz269
(Post 10215644)
Not sure that was necessary....as a foreigner, I and a few people are actually afraid to visit California or anywhere in the US for our safety. Back to Mexico's setup....suggest we await the investigation preliminary report to see what factors were found that need to be considered when analysing the outcome of this event.
@FlugJung: thanks for your experienced-based points regarding why that particular airport was not set up with LLWAS. @fisher: making a broad brush assertion like that is going to get a pointed response; not sure why you chose to stir the pot, but to each his own I guess. I'm just glad they all got out. |
Originally Posted by aterpster
(Post 10215640)
You airline pilots in Mexico and the Mexico ATC system are first rate with, of course, some exceptions. Having said that, as a "gringo" who lives in Southern California, I am afraid to go to Mexico for my safety, your first-rate pilots and ATC notwithstanding.
Willoz. I’ve visited your nation a number of times and never had an issue, but I knew where to avoid to stay out of trouble. There’s areas of Sydney that I’d avoid for my safety, doesn’t mean the whole nation is off limits. You might want to consider a similar approach to the US. |
Just because the airport has LLWAS , RVR, and Doppler radar it still won't stop stupid pilots from doing stupid stuff.
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Originally Posted by Halfnut
(Post 10217967)
Just because the airport has LLWAS , RVR, and Doppler radar it still won't stop stupid pilots from doing stupid stuff.
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Update from DGAC
Bad weather caused Aeromexico crash in July, investigators say September 5, 2018 / 10:25 PM MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - An Aeromexico plane crash in July that injured dozens of people in northern Mexico was likely caused by bad weather, authorities investigating the accident said on Wednesday. Jose Armando Constantino, the director of analysis of accidents and incidents for Mexico’s civil aviation agency, said there was no evidence of human error or mechanical failures. "There is no evidence that the motors had a mechanical or technical problem," he told a news conference. "The air speed indicates there were many fluctuations, there was an external factor. The external factor is a microburst, the probable cause (of the accident) was due to meteorological factors," he said. * * * * * * * * Investigators have found no evidence indicating that the crew should have known not to take off, Constantino said. A pilot in training served as copilot while the plane was taking off, he said. The agency will later present a final report detailing its findings about the accident. |
It's interesting that, more than a month after the event, we are still seeing reports that it was an RTO gone wrong, despite there being no evidence to support that assertion.
Accident: Aeromexico Connect E190 at Durango on Jul 31st 2018, veered off and overran runway after rejected takeoff and burst into flames Link to Reuters/DGAC article quoted above: Reuters: Bad weather caused Aeromexico crash in July, investigators say |
It's interesting that, more than a month after the event, we are still seeing reports that it was an RTO gone wrong, despite there being no evidence to support that assertion. |
The evidence does support RTO somewhat. Once through the hail, the aircraft settled back onto the runway, without rolling pitching or yawing. Engine noise is gone, and the screams do not start until we see debris flying past the window frame. No “rotation”. The slog through the overrun was the gear snagging on irregular surface and planted soil, gravel? |
Originally Posted by Concours77
(Post 10242826)
The evidence does support RTO somewhat. Once through the hail, the aircraft settled back onto the runway, without rolling pitching or yawing. Engine noise is gone,
Given that the intact, detached engines have been available to investigators for several weeks, I think we'd know by now if a reverser had been deployed on either/both before they departed the wing. |
In the preliminary report on page 39 it shows 91% N1 and 95% N2, is that maximum for the conditions (28 C at 6600ft) or was this a reduced thrust takeoff?
There is also 75.0 and 75.3 printed on the throttles in the bottom right of the picture. http://avherald.com/files/aeromexico...ary_report.pdf |
Third crew member in cockpit
On page 41 of the preliminary report (pdf), third paragraph, begins with "se detectó...", says "there was detected a non-authorized en-route habilitation session. One "crew member" acted as co-pilot, with Commander's surveillance until he (the Commander) asked for the control. The aeronautical authorities were given word of this".
This means a THIRD CREW member was in the cockpit at the moment of the TO procedure, acting as co-pilot and made the TO procedure actions until the PIC asked for the controls of the AC. This was confirmed in a press conference in Mexico and is published in several media: https://elpais.com/internacional/201...32_422381.html http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/carter...-de-aeromexico |
Given the impact, belly first, the engines were gone immediately. The lack of noise starts whilst still airborne, due to retarded throttles.... just a theory, I’ll push it until I see the final. Meanwhile, thanks for the reply:ok: |
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