Did a little time on Curtiss C46. Engine failure if you could start chucking the freight if you couldn’t pick a field. But they we’re controllable & great fun to fly. Different times different rules. To be honest that experience stood me in very good stead with the big jets. Imho the pilots in this incident were some of the best so there for the grace of God. Hope they recover. |
Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek
(Post 10197901)
With both pilots alive they should be able to give a good account of what happened to the enquiry, they should be out of hospital soon. There may well be other contributing factors such as problems with the gear or flaps.
|
Anyone know if #1 prop was feathered at any point,and, if the aircraft used water/water-meth. injection...?
|
They got the gear up very early while still being over the runway. That shows that they where aware of the situation pretty soon. |
Originally Posted by EDML
(Post 10198239)
They got the gear up very early while still being over the runway. That shows that they where aware of the situation pretty soon.
|
I remember the instructor for my initial Convair class saying that the gear retract speed was the fastest of any of its generation aircraft specifically to improve the engine out performance. |
Originally Posted by sycamore
(Post 10198351)
Anyone know if #1 prop was feathered at any point,and, if the aircraft used water/water-meth. injection...?
Looking at the vid from the Cessna I would guess that they had both engines running until they turned onto base considering the speed they were doing. Something happened on the base leg for them not to turn onto final. May be they shut down the engine and it wouldn't feather. |
Most likely Cylinder head cracked then blew off thus constant smoke out one exhaust on that cylinder side. If it dropped a valve it will maintain power at 30 inches or barometric but will PUFF Smoke not stream smoke. If smoke trailing from both exhausts it is a blown supercharger drive seal or broken supercharger drive the later will have the engine stop and windmill, if it breaks the front reduction gearbox gear may end up with a run away prop.
With blown off cylinder head you can in emergency keep running the engine at higher power (or barometric if its banging to much with the blown cylinder ) which is what you maybe seeing going on from the Cessna video and the takeoff. It shakes like hell for few minutes but will put out until the piston comes apart, breaks the rod at which time you feather it . Sometimes will run 1 minute sometimes 2-3mins dependent where the cylinder head comes off. Had 8 failures myself with R1830-92 and R2800-CB16s. 1 Master rod, 1 rod, 2 dropped valves the others were cylinder head blew off some through the cowl. When these big radials stop suddenly from seizure other things break and shear it is a lot of mass and moving parts All my failures on takeoff or first stage power reduction. All at sea level and that was bad enough. Just some technical thoughts but the investigators will advise later. They did a good job with what they were given on the day, speedy recovery to all.. |
Originally Posted by A Squared
(Post 10198392)
You'd select gear up as soon as you had a positive indication of climb. That's usually over the runway.
|
Originally Posted by EDML
(Post 10198541)
I do know that. However, seeing the very shallow climb I seriously doubt they had a positive indication on the VSI. They where desperate to reduce the drag ASAP. So, how much experience do you have flying recip airliners from that era? I have quite a few thousand hours in them. Different airplane, same engine. I can tell you a couple of things, one is that on a hot day, in good VFR conditions it was absolutely normal to make a very shallow initial climb. The reason being that you wanted to build airspeed rapidly, to increase the cooling airflow over the cylinders, which will be hovering around redline very quickly, and also to more quickly reach the airspeed at which you make the first power reduction and also allows you to turn off the ADI, which causes the fuel air mixture to enriched. And yeah, you most certainly do get a positive rate indication on your instruments with a very shallow climb like that. Gear retraction at my airline was called as soon as the VSI was above zero and the altimeter was showing positive movement. That would be pretty much what you saw in the video. There's aren't turbine aircraft, they don't fly like turbine aircraft, you don't fly them like turbine aircraft, and they don't look like turbine aircraft when you're watching them. |
Originally Posted by 4 Holer
(Post 10198539)
Had 8 failures myself with R1830-92 and R2800-CB16s. 1 Master rod, 1 rod, 2 dropped valves the others were cylinder head blew off some through the cowl. When these big radials stop suddenly from seizure other things break and shear it is a lot of mass and moving parts
. |
Originally Posted by EDML
(Post 10198541)
I do know that. However, seeing the very shallow climb I seriously doubt they had a positive indication on the VSI. They where desperate to reduce the drag ASAP. |
Apparently this was infamous for causing backfiring leading to the auto feather engaging so many crew didn't arm the auto feather. |
Positive Climb
Originally Posted by Dan_Brown
(Post 10198652)
Sorry to be pedantic but at, or soon after rotate the VSI, depending on the type of aircraft may well give erroneous readings. As correctly pointed out above, a positive climb is reliably indicated by the altimeter.
|
Originally Posted by A Squared
(Post 10198559)
So, how much experience do you have flying recip airliners from that era? I have quite a few thousand hours in them. Different airplane, same engine. I can tell you a couple of things, one is that on a hot day, in good VFR conditions it was absolutely normal to make a very shallow initial climb. The reason being that you wanted to build airspeed rapidly, to increase the cooling airflow over the cylinders, which will be hovering around redline very quickly, and also to more quickly reach the airspeed at which you make the first power reduction and also allows you to turn off the ADI, which causes the fuel air mixture to enriched. And yeah, you most certainly do get a positive rate indication on your instruments with a very shallow climb like that. Gear retraction at my airline was called as soon as the VSI was above zero and the altimeter was showing positive movement. the would be pretty much what you saw in the video. There's aren't turbine aircraft, they don't fly like turbine aircraft, you don't fly them like turbine aircraft, and they don't look like turbine aircraft when you're watching them.
Anyways, from your experience would you rate the climb while over the runway (and of course still accelerating) as normal for these kind of aircraft? Of course the density altitude of at least 5,000ft (not sure about the OAT that day) plays a big role, too. I am just interested if they still had power from the left engine at that point. There is no visible yaw and no bank towards the "good" engine but unfortunately you can't see the rudder on the video or any of the pictures after lift-off. Does anybody know the blue line speed of a CV-340? |
Originally Posted by Centaurus
(Post 10198740)
Sounds like an Old Wives Tale. Flying the Convair 440 I have used ADI on hundreds of occasions. Not once did I experience back-firing on take off. Certainly we experienced occasional rough running due to spark plug fouling with 115/145 Octane fuel but it usually cleared itself during initial climb. As far as I recall autofeather was armed for every take off. .
|
Originally Posted by Old Fella
(Post 10198744)
I do not dispute the point regarding erroneous VSI indications, however the call often is "Positive Rate, Gear Up"
|
Post WWII most piston airliners were certified on 115/145.
On 100LL derates have to be applied. Engine out performance on 100LL will be less than on 115/145. |
Originally Posted by A Squared
(Post 10198891)
Meaningless semantics. A Positive Climb is inherently also a positive rate of climb. The SOP call at my current airline is "Positive Climb"
|
Originally Posted by EDML
(Post 10198804)
Anyways, from your experience would you rate the climb while over the runway (and of course still accelerating) as normal for these kind of aircraft? Of course the density altitude of at least 5,000ft (not sure about the OAT that day) plays a big role, too.
Originally Posted by EDML
(Post 10198804)
I am just interested if they still had power from the left engine at that point. There is no visible yaw and no bank towards the "good" engine but unfortunately you can't see the rudder on the video or any of the pictures after lift-off.
Originally Posted by EDML
(Post 10198804)
Does anybody know the blue line speed of a CV-340?
|
Originally Posted by A Squared
(Post 10198906)
I haven't flown the Convairs, but I'd expect that it didn't have a blue line, but rather V speeds which were calculated based on takeoff weight, altitude and OAT. Blue-line is more light twin figure. It's possible though, that era was kind of a transitional period for aircraft performance theory.
|
Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
(Post 10198903)
Post WWII most piston airliners were certified on 115/145.
On 100LL derates have to be applied. Engine out performance on 100LL will be less than on 115/145. |
Originally Posted by A Squared
(Post 10198906)
As someone else noted earlier, it is quite possible for an engine to have a cylinder failure and still be producing a substantial amount of power.
|
Originally Posted by EDML
(Post 10198914)
There is no yaw visible at all. Even if you react very quickly I would expect at least a little yaw at low speed and high power.
|
Originally Posted by PJ2
(Post 10198996)
Yes, power had to have been developed at least right after takeoff as the rudder is faired in the video as the aircraft passes overhead and away from the camera.
|
There is now a video circulating taken from inside the aircraft, left side, with the rear of the engine in view. The video continues to and beyond impact.
|
The gear was obviously retracted very early and there is no rudder input or yaw. Perhaps a premature retraction caused the props to hit the ground, with consequential damage and power loss on BOTH engines? |
Taken from inside.
|
Looks like the left engine finally failed while they where about to turn base or final (hard to tell as they are making a constant shallow turn.) Maybe that was all they could get turning over the running engine. The left aileron looks strange. It seems to be deflected upwards a lot which neither makes sense in a right turn nor with a failing left engine. That might also be due to the quality of the video, though. |
While not wishing to speculate or pre-empt the investigation into this tragedy, the following personal experience of what can happen when an aircraft has been out of service for a protracted period may be worth relating.
In early 1993, I was contracted to ferry a Vickers Viscount from the USA to Zaire, This was an early 700 series that had been a VIP machine for some of its life, so had relatively low hours. It had been on a storage maintenance program in the Arizona desert. They had kept enough fuel in the tanks to carry out periodic engine runs. When we took delivery and did a short test flight I was pleasantly surprised at how all the systems except the autopilot seemed good to go. We refuelled to full tanks to position from Tucson to Mena, where we would fit extra ferry tanks. About two hours into the flight the number one engine ran down and autofeathered, quickly followed by number two surging badly. A quick right hand turn and down we went towards Ardmore, noting all remaining fuel flowmeters were fluctuating. At shutdown it was found all four fuel filters were badly clogged with rubber deposits. Having been baking in the desert for so many years, the tops of the fuel bladders had badly perished. It was OK while a small amount of fuel remained in the tanks as it kept the lower sections moist enough not to leak. But once we went to full tanks the fuel sloshing around washed the rotten rubber into the system. Could it be that this model Convair has rubber tanks, or rubber fuel lines? An engine running at high power suddenly leaned out due to fuel blockage would possibly backfire badly. This could cause a supercharger fire with no immediate loss of power, so no noticeable rudder input. Or a dramatic loss of power on both engines could explain the rudder position. Another possibility is a rotten or burst fuel line could have caused the fire, and the fire could have damaged the aileron circuit. |
The CB-3 and CB-16 were certified on 100/130, the CB-4 and CB 17 were certified on 108/135 brown gas. |
After following all the posts, seeing the extent of physical airframe damage and then watching that on board video which continues recording well after impact I was amazed at how well the passengers seemed to handle it. |
In looking at the internal footage a few notable observations are apparent
1, sooting on the panel junction in front of the exhaust outlet, and 2 fire under the wing - which is definitely abnormal and extremely alarming. It would be a presumption that a fire has broken out, at some stage, either between the engine power section firewall and nacelle firewall, or a mechanical failure has occurred with the engine power section(Cylinder or multiples of, or rotating elements) and an uncontrolled oil leak is igniting on the exhaust and exiting vial the cowl flaps - which there would be no fire suppressant for(reserved for the Accessories section - oil and Fuel services etc). In the departure video there is clear flaming in the exit area of the augmenter, which indicated something mechanical is amiss in there, the popping of the engine, smoke and strobe effect of the video indicates RPM changes occurring, and waiting for the Governer to assert itself - rpm recovery. Im going to assume the later - if you have a fire in the accessory section, fire alarms would sound, the engine(if determined is overheating/or on fire) would be secured and extinguishers used - Securing of would cut fuel and oil supplies and stop pumps for doing just that - The propwould also be feathered and stopping rotation. A failure in the Power section may produce a fire that cant be seen, and if still producing power may lead you to continue until safe to secure. As for landing in a paddock - there are two pilots who will know the events relating to those decisions. Mine is but speculation, I am willing to speculate that they may have been made aware of an external fire late in to the flight and decided being on the ground in a controlled fashion was a better outcome. than pushing on to the runway. |
Ordinarily I would have thought that this crash was unsurvivable, looking at the pictures. I am inclined to agree with an earlier post that this craft was "crash landed" rather than "crashed", that is it was under control. Another reason for the high survival rate is the incredible strength of these old birds. I sure would not have liked to see a plastic fantastic composite aircraft after an arrival like this.
The pax, to the best of my knowledge were aviation people or the family of aviation people so much more likely to stay calm under the circumstances. |
Originally Posted by EDML
(Post 10199208)
Looks like the left engine finally failed while they where about to turn base or final (hard to tell as they are making a constant shallow turn.) Maybe that was all they could get turning over the running engine. The left aileron looks strange. It seems to be deflected upwards a lot which neither makes sense in a right turn nor with a failing left engine. That might also be due to the quality of the video, though. |
What an awful video to watch. Based on the pilots previous experience, I can only speculate they were not convinced the aircraft would fly on one engine. They kept that crook engine running for as long as possible. I would probably have done the same. At least they flew that aircraft to the crash site. |
The upward aileron puzzles me, it was not in T/O or shortly after. It looks like it is jammed full upward. It could indicate they could not crank the plane in a right turn to join final. To me it looks like the nr1 continued delivering power. The last sec before impact You hear the engine(s) roaring up.
If the jammed aileron proves to be the scenario, they have met a miserable set of emergencies. For the sake of the investigation it would be nice that they could remember a few things but for the sake of their mind it would be good if all after T/O is erased. So they will not end up waking up now and then from a nightmarish dream the rest of their life. I wish them a good recovery. |
Theres a surge/power change at 43-44 seconds as well. It actually sounds like a reduction or miss then returns quickly thereafter.
|
The upward aileron could have been a momentary turn of the control wheel taken by entire coincidence at that split second the camera shutter operated. I guess the question is why the prop was not immediately feathered but allowed to run during the entire attempted circuit - particularly as a fire in that engine was noticeable to the passengers. No doubt there will be a logical explanation to be revealed during the formal investigation.
|
Very impressive Passengers, perhaps engineers, no simpering or calling for Mama. Afrikaners :-) Hate to suggest they may have shut the wrong engine down, brief I make when flying with an engineer.. don’t shut anything down without explicit instructions. Thrash it if necessary, preservation off the menu let’s hope it’s not the case |
All times are GMT. The time now is 16:46. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.