Ride Reports
In years gone by the only requests on ATC for ‘ride reports’ were by American aircraft. On the North Atlantic if one person mentioned turbulence the airwaves became clogged with our American friends desperately trying to find out if the turbulence was near them,
In the past few years I notice a few voices from the other side of the Atlantic bleatering on about ride reports. Not only on the Atlantic but in congested UK airspace. Whilst not wishing to point any fingers the two worst culprits appear to be the self styled ‘World’s Favourite’ and the green clover tail. Does anyone agree and could someone shed some light as to why they are doing this? Or are they just scared of turbulence? |
Passengers don’t like turbulence. Trying to avoid turbulence is now part of the job to give those passengers a better experience. |
Passengers, Crew, Animals, Freight - does anyone or anything, "like" Turbulence? I understand how it happens, the difference between crossing a co-altitude efflux, "light chop" and bouncing around like a tethered kangaroo.
When I was soaring over the cooling towers around RAF Lindholme, I knew all about it. Never did throw up, Cannot tolerate booze so bring on sub-orbital flight for me. IG |
Having flown for a major LoCo and a major Legacy, the LoCo had the seatbelt sign on when sensibly required and the Legacy had the seatbelt sign on when the Captain forgot to turn it off, when there were a few bumps in the cruise, when there was cloud, when there were clouds up ahead, when they could see clouds somewhere, when clouds where on the sigmet chart anywhere, when they felt like it and when the stars aligned in a certain way... result: seatbelt sign ignored by everyone on the Legacy and the seatbelt sign having practical meaning on the LoCo.
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You never need to ask for one. Just wait for 30 seconds and someone from the US will ask.....
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"Ride report" questions have seen a pervasive increase in recent times on the western side of the Atlantic too. Everyone and their dog seems to want a ride report when they check in with a new control sector. I think climbing through 5,000' on the SID is a little late to be asking about turbulence, as it should have been discussed during the met briefing. The increase in such queries suggests that pilots are too attached to their phones and are not giving the met briefing the appropriate consideration. As far as I am concerned, if I encounter turbulence, I'll report it to ATC and then to dispatch through ACARS. The dispatcher can then send a message to all the affected aircraft along the route. I hate extraneous communications, for which this falls into the category. I feel the increase may be linked to experience. For example, I recently had an FO ask me how I knew there was turbulence coming up crossing the Rockies into Edmonton when none had been drawn on any of the maps. I explained that, while it was smooth as silk at cruise, the wind was on our back at 80 knots and this would generate turbulence in the lee of the hills. He had put far too much trust into the graphical products, and was yet still surprised after my explanation that we encountered turbulence from FL240 to about 8,000'. And this is where I think the problem arises. Too many new pilots are looking at the graphical products and not taking the raw data into account. If you see a jetstream is turning 50 degrees along your track, you're going to get turbulence, even if someone did not colour it in. If the wind is crossing the rocks at a decent speed, you're going to have a bumpy flight.
As for the Americans, frankly, if I could be sued because we hit a bump and young Suzie hit her head while walking down the aisle, I'd probably leave the belts on the whole time and continually ask ATC about the rides too. Those guys have it bad. Do something wrong, get sued. Do something right, get sued. Save 150 people, get sued. It's a horrible system. Now, if I may also add - a related point to ride reports I promise - is the increase in "moderate turbulence" reports. I've flown behind a lot of aircraft reporting moderate and have come to understand that around 50% of pilots have no clue. Far, far too many times light turbulence is being reported as moderate. I suspect it is from the general decrease in experience, as when one is in moderate (or severe), there is no doubt about it. I know, moderate may be different for swept-wing, straight-wing, et cetera, but in many cases, I've been following the same type of aircraft and what they are reporting is not nearly as bad as what it is. I also get that weather changes, but not nearly that quickly. There, that feels better. |
For example, I recently had an FO ask me how I knew there was turbulence coming up crossing the Rockies into Edmonton when none had been drawn on any of the maps. I explained that, while it was smooth as silk at cruise, the wind was on our back at 80 knots and this would generate turbulence in the lee of the hills. |
Is this really something worthy about complaining about? |
Hello West Coast
Yes it is relevant. In the most congested airspace in the world to have ‘experienced’ pilots clogging up the RT with requests for Ride Reports I feel is totally unnecessary, hence the initial post!
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Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 10140804)
Is this really something worthy about complaining about? |
They are not nearly as annoying as those “practice PAN’s” clogging up 121.5, some other regional habit;) and most of the time they are of good use when you can use them to actually try to avoid the turbulence. But sometimes when you are stuck in the oceanic tracks, can’t go up, can’t go down, can’t go left, can’t go right.... I would love to tell them to shut the ... up. |
Are you guys totally stupid? Ride reports occur because we need to know what the duration of the turbulence will be so our cabin crew can do their service without fear of being tossed up to the ceiling. We have had crew members seriously injured when caught out by turbulence while doing service. If I can get a heads up on what the ride will be ahead I can pass that information back to the part of the aircraft that pays the bills. Plus it’s so difficult to eat my ice cream sundae when it’s bumpy. And hard to read my BBC news app. |
My company unfortunately did have some recent increase in turbulence related incidents, but afaik none of them is related to turbulence that can be avoided by the infamous ride reports. They are either caused by either wake turbulence or by unexpected CB encounters. In recurrent training now we do pay extra attention to WXR use. |
Originally Posted by cactusbusdrvr
(Post 10140856)
We have had crew members seriously injured when caught out by turbulence while doing service. |
Originally Posted by golfyankeesierra
(Post 10140860)
Just out of interest, what kind of turbulence was involved? A month or so ago Gander and Moncton were reporting some severe turbulence SIGMETS. They made sure we had them then they were great about reporting where the good rides were. Cooperate and graduate. We all want the best for ourselves, pur crews and our passengers. |
For (hopefully) the last time, US crews do not ask about nor give ride reports because they are afraid of being sued. If they were afraid of being sued, they would simply never turn the seatbelt sign off, would they? They do it because in the USA there is a strong tradition of CUSTOMER SERVICE, something that, as anyone who has ever tried to get the attention of a server in a European restaurant can tell you, is sorely lacking in older parts of the world. This applies also to the excellent air traffic controllers over there, who do a great job of sharing info about the meteo situation when and if their primary duties allow. If you are noticing more UK and Euro crews sharing information about turbulence than before, it's because it's a good idea to do that, as long as it does not overburden ATC, of course.
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Asking others who have knowledge about the ride you can expect is a very sensible thing to do. But the reason I ask is not because I am worried about getting sued. It’s because like every other pilot I have a duty to look after my passengers and crew. This means I will try and use all the information available to help make decisions about where and how to fly. PM |
Originally Posted by Long Haul
(Post 10140887)
For (hopefully) the last time, US crews do not ask about nor give ride reports because they are afraid of being sued. If they were afraid of being sued, they would simply never turn the seatbelt sign off, would they?
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From 15 years of crossing the Atlantic, I'm not particularly aware of a massive increase in ride reports, but that may be due to the reduced amount of radio traffic with the coming of CPDLC. I am fairly certain that the amount of time that I spend in areas of potential turbulence has increased. Anecdotally, I wonder if this is to do with the combination of the increased accuracy of weather forecasting and the pressure on airlines to route their aircraft with the greatest tailwinds to save fuel. Plus, with the increase of flow traffic on the NAT track system due to reduced separation, more aircraft are being routed through the most turbulent/efficient areas? Maybe, due to changing climate factors, there is just more turbulence? All in all, I am largely grateful to people making accurate reports of Mod/Sev, as we were the night before last, when a report near Gander enabled us to avoid the caning taken by some of our colleagues.
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US CRAR 15.2.4. When encountering turbulence, pilots are urgently requested to report such conditions to ATC as soon as practicable. (....) |
Originally Posted by macdo
(Post 10140973)
..........a report near Gander enabled us to avoid the caning taken by some of our colleagues.
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Originally Posted by INNflight
(Post 10140999)
Therefore, ATC specifically wants them, and checking in with: "xxx 123, FL340, light chop." is perfectly fine... at least in the States!
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Originally Posted by cactusbusdrvr
(Post 10140856)
Are you guys totally stupid? Ride reports occur because we need to know what the duration of the turbulence will be so our cabin crew can do their service without fear of being tossed up to the ceiling. We have had crew members seriously injured when caught out by turbulence while doing service. If I can get a heads up on what the ride will be ahead I can pass that information back to the part of the aircraft that pays the bills. Plus it’s so difficult to eat my ice cream sundae when it’s bumpy. And hard to read my BBC news app. ^^^^THIS! JFK to LAX 100 mi west of DEN was in expected turbulence-Light occaisional Moderate when another aircraft 30 miles in front of us reported severe turbulence. I called back to told the inflight to drop everything and sit down NOW!!! Asked ATC for an immediate turn away from it and as we started it we got hammered. 5 to 6 seconds seemed like forever as we were slammed. Auto pilot kicked off, 20 knot overspeed and crap flying around. No injuries but when I called back they said that some pax were actually still in the aisle!! Seat Belt sign had been on since we left JFK...Ride reports? F-yeah I want them. |
For me personally, I sometimes ask for reports of higher levels to know if it's a good idea to climb and when to do it.
When you're close to the performance limited Flight Level it's always nice to get some more margin before climbing if the higher levels have some light turbulence for example. Or not climb at all. It's also nice to know, when you're entering turbulence, for how long it will most likely last for. To keep your crew and passengers informed and maybe considering changing FL. Why this is being considered unreasonable and "problematic" by some is beyond me, but hey, I can only speak for myself. |
Maui-
Having flown for a major LoCo and a major Legacy, the LoCo had the seatbelt sign on when sensibly required and the Legacy had the seatbelt sign on when the Captain forgot to turn it off, when there were a few bumps in the cruise, when there was cloud, when there were clouds up ahead, when they could see clouds somewhere, when clouds where on the sigmet chart anywhere, when they felt like it and when the stars aligned in a certain way... result: seatbelt sign ignored by everyone on the Legacy and the seatbelt sign having practical meaning on the LoCo. TSRA Now, if I may also add - a related point to ride reports I promise - is the increase in "moderate turbulence" reports. I've flown behind a lot of aircraft reporting moderate and have come to understand that around 50% of pilots have no clue. Far, far too many times light turbulence is being reported as moderate Of course , nothing wrong with erring on the side of caution . As always-" better safe than sorry. " |
Originally Posted by srjumbo747
(Post 10140412)
Or are they just scared of turbulence?
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Mistakenly opened this thread thinking it would be about the best places to visit on a layover. That would be worthwhile R&N. |
Originally Posted by Nemrytter
(Post 10141915)
This is a very odd comment for a professional pilot to make.
I know of at least two colleagues who go to heroic lengths to avoid areas of potential turbulence. One of them had a very serious upset in wave and doesn't want to revisit the experience. |
As an ATCO, I want ride reports and am perfectly happy to pass them on also. At the end of the day I’m a service provider and anything I can do to improve that service (time permitting of course) is a good thing. And yes I’ve noticed an increase in the frequency of severe turb reports and sigmets in recent years. It could be as much do with more congested airspace as with climate change. I got my first ever “extreme” turbulence report a couple of years ago (from an A380 of all things). I had forgotten there was a category above “severe”. |
Originally Posted by macdo
(Post 10141995)
Not so odd.
I know of at least two colleagues who go to heroic lengths to avoid areas of potential turbulence. One of them had a very serious upset in wave and doesn't want to revisit the experience. |
Originally Posted by atr-drivr
(Post 10141247)
Seat Belt sign had been on since we left JFK... It takes forever in the US before they switch off the fasten seatbelts sign even with no turbulence whatsoever. |
Originally Posted by Nemrytter
(Post 10142027)
Perhaps you misunderstood me: Your comment here emphasises my point. What I found odd was the 'just scared of turbulence' as if wanting to know what turbulence is around is somehow embarrassing.
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The trouble is..... European operator......’reporting light-mod chop’ American operator......’severe turbulence!!’ Always been thus. |
Like many things I found that modern day teaching of the numerous cadets does not include educational guidance on assessing levels or turbulence. You can have guide lines as it is quite common in the apprentice years not to experience anything of significance.
I used to like some of the self designed guidelines. On the rear galley work top; a half cup of water. Did it slosh in the cup? = Light. Did it overflow? = Moderate. Did the cup fall over? Mod/Sev. Did the cup bounce of the ceiling? = Severe. I once heard a story of the Atlantic ride report conversations. There was some real choppy stuff about and the guys were relating to it in similar terms to mine. One US pilot come on and aid it was "kinda rough as he'd just spilt coffee down his shirt. Does anyone have any reports." Back came a Brit, "we're having dinner and the captain just stabbed himself with the fork; so I guess it's a little rougher here." That's when the ride reports are not overtaken by the baseball scores. There can also be turbulence in the Leagues. |
There is a difference between asking the controller if he/she has any ride reports and asking them if they “have any good altitudes”, or, “is it better lower”. In the former, you are augmenting the met information you should already have; in the latter, you are revealing yourself to be unprepared. Just my opinion.
With respect to the US, one aspect to consider is that the dissemination of turbulence PIREPs can be quite slow, and when using text-based communication with dispatch, tedious at best. The live oral communication with ATC is capable of trading a great deal of current information quickly. There is, admittedly, a tendency to blather on in the States, but that has a lot to do with our love of conversational radio phraseology as well as our unlimited lack of courtesy on the airwaves…personally I like to wait ten seconds after switching frequencies before I transmit, but that’s not a universal habit! And as far as baseball scores go…there are two distinct eras in aviation. In the early era, we asked ATC for the Super Bowl score, and then made a PA to the cabin relaying the score. In the modern era, we call the cabin, get them to ask a passenger for the Super Bowl score, and then pass it on to ATC. Different world today… |
Severity of Turbulence
For the purpose of reporting and forecasting of air turbulence, it is graded on a relative scale, according to its perceived or potential effect on a 'typical' aircraft, as Light, Moderate, Severe and Extreme.
The best way to avoid Clear Air Turbulence? Fly in cloud! MM |
Astonishingly the only time I had turbulence where I could not read the instruments was on approach. We decided that diversion was the better part of valour.
It was irritating on N.Atlantic under HF, when your crz FL was just skimming the tops of TCu's. Lucky if a couple of miles up wind could solve your problem, quietly. If upper levels were blocked you were stuffed and cobble-stoned your way for a longitude or two. |
Originally Posted by Long Haul
They do it because in the USA there is a strong tradition of CUSTOMER SERVICE, something that, as anyone who has ever tried to get the attention of a server in a European restaurant can tell you, is sorely lacking in older parts of the world
Originally Posted by A340yumyum
The trouble is.....
European operator......’reporting light-mod chop’ American operator......’severe turbulence!!’ Always been thus. |
Restaurant tipping? Really? Glad you can use a thread on ride reports as a vehicle for your anti US tripe. |
My very accurate predictor of onset of turbulence is about a minute after I get a meal or drink on the tray table in front of me. It's not been bad enough to result in me wearing any of it yet, but I've been on a few flights where there's been an announcement for cabin crew to take their seats immediately. (Cue to hold on to the drink and possibly put the lid back on the food tray.)
I would echo the comment from 747-8driver above about the seatbelt sign. While there are clueless people who get up at obviously inappropriate times, if it's been nice and calm for a significant period in cruise and the sign is still on, people start deciding that it's been forgotten, whether that's the case or not. Remember that in the back you can't see what's in front and the fancy instruments aren't visible either. Having said that, I still dislike being asked to get out of an aisle seat to let someone out of one of the other seats when the sign is on. |
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