Wind Limits Funchal
 

In an unusually windy winter/spring there have been a great many diversions from LPMA. I read that the quite restrictive wind limits are under review by the portuguese authorities. It's said these limits date back to the 1960s, long before the impressive runway extension on stilts was constructed and before the current generation of aircraft were even on the drawing board. I never had the pleasure of operating through FNC but have visited many times as SLF. There's no doubt that the topography produces considerable turbulence when the wind is in the north west quarter so I wonder how those of you who do operate there regularly would view an easing of current restrictions. (Put rather
simply approaches to 05 are not allowed when the wind is 300 through 010 and above 15 gusting 25.)

The current limitations seem eminently sensible to me as Funchal is one of those you treat with huge amounts of respect. Sticking in that neck of the woods, Porto Santo, Flores and Horta can also bite. Further North, Gibraltar is just plain nasty.

I've been into FNC several times with the wind near limits. I'd like to keep the limits :eek:

I only did the qualifying sim-training, never rostered to operate. A lot of the sim time is made up of various wind-shear events and recoveries. Not a nice place.

Normally the wind displayed on the HSI at 50' RA is considerable different from what you have been given.

A colleague from way back was landing there one morning, within limits, when, in the final stage of the flare, a sudden gust from right behind put him firmly on the nose wheel with resultant damage to the aircraft. Even when observing all the limits Funchal can still get up and bite.

Had several days in the last year with TAF's suggesting light North Westerlies and fine conditions, only to find the 05 TDZ wind brushing up against the 15kt limit. A 7kt forecast to a 15kt actual is not a huge increase.

I'd rather keep the limits too - And that's absolutely nothing to do with the significantly increased possibility of a leisurely evening somewhere in Portugal or Canaries, which is otherwise a rarity for us! :p

Fun flying when the weather was nice but I've not seen the extensions. I'm mindful such structures could be the generators of curly air in their own right.

Miss flights like that. Put one on one's metal - whatever that means. :ooh: Oops, Mettle. Thanks Chris2303
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Google is your friend

Mettle
ˈmɛt(ə)l/
noun

1. a person's ability to cope well with difficulties; spirit and resilience.
   "the team showed their true mettle in the second half"synonyms:spirit, fortitude, tenacity, strength of character, moral fibre, steel, determination, resolve, resolution, steadfastness, indomitability, backbone, hardihood, pluck, nerve, gameness, courage, courageousness, bravery, gallantry, valour, intrepidity, fearlessness, boldness, daring, audacity; More

The wind there doesn’t even need to be near limits for go arounds and diversions.
It all depends on the direction, turbulence and drift.

Jo 90 : You have the reference to that ? the limits are not there to restrict operations but to ensure safety . I hope someone in an office understood that bit .

Which in turn is considerably different from what is actually happening.
It's one of the things that grinds my gears.
FMC derived wind might be useful for giving others spot winds in the cruise.
At a push for sussing out possible tailwind on finals, (stressing the possible).
After that it is historical information.

In my ignorance I thought that landing limitations are decided by the airlines, not ATC or any other ground authorities. Genuine query, I am confused

There's a report, but I haven't enough posts to attach it, being an interested SLF lurker who doesn't usually feel informed enough about anything, to post!!
Add www to the start of this and you should get there !!
tvi24.iol.pt/sociedade/piloto/aeroporto-da-madeira-nao-devia-ter-limites-de-vento

I understand that the Committee on Economy, Finance and Tourism Madeira of the Legislative Assembly of Madeira are holding inquiry into the operation of the airport, and this is a report of evidence it received from an experienced pilot, suggesting that the mandatory limits be removed, and the onus placed on pilots to make their own judgement. Dont know when a decision is expected or even if one will ever be made !!

Here's a quote from a Madeiran news blog:

https://www.madeiraislandnews.com/wp...il-759x500.jpg

WIND LIMITS REMAIN FOR SAFETY AT MADEIRA AIRPORT

TOBI HUGHES28TH APRIL 2018
MADEIRA
NEWS STORY
6 COMMENTS3257 VIEWS 5The vice president of the Regional Government today addressed the issue related to the wind limits at the Madeira International Airport Cristiano Ronaldo, which motivated a meeting yesterday in Lisbon, but safeguarded that this is a matter that has to do, mainly, with the security.

Pedro Calado reminds us that the situation of the winds and the operationality of the Airport refers to “a technical issue, very complicated. It is important that we have the notion that it is security. The entity that manages the Airport is ANAC and all decisions have to be authorized by that entity. ANA manages the airports and is in tune with the ANAC “.

Calado says that “what is happening at Madeira Airport is unusual, it is the only airport in the world that has mandatory limits, meaning that even if the commanders consider having safety conditions to land, if the wind limits are above stipulated, can not do so under penalty of ANAC suspending its license to fly. ”

The Vice President of the Government expressed to ANAC his amazement at the fact that the limits set for Madeira Airport have not been changed since 1964, since the inauguration, and the track has already grown, the areonaves are more evolved and the pilots more training, emphasizing that the Regional Government requested the intervention of these entities with jurisdiction in the matter in the sense that the limits are changed from mandatory to recommendable simply because there is not a single airport in the world with this classification.

Pedro Calado also refers to the existence of devices that could eventually provide the Airport with better means, and the Regional Government has shown availability for these acquisitions. What happens is that, even with these acquisitions, ANAC guarantees that there are no conditions today to raise these limits of the winds in terms of safety, since there are contradictory positions regarding the times of measurement of the winds and their conclusions . There is a work that is being developed by several entities and what the Regional Government has requested is that there be speed of studies, always taking into account the safety of people. ”



Relax guys and gals!

".....and the track has already grown, the areonaves are more evolved and the pilots more training, emphasizing that the Regional Government requested the intervention of these entities with jurisdiction in the matter in the sense that the limits are changed from mandatory to recommendable simply because there is not a single airport in the world with this classification."

Are the limits at GIB recommended or mandatory? There are certainly airports in the world that have more restricting tailwind limits than for the a/c. Considering 'pilots have more training'....Hm. There are many threads on here that debate the opposite. I think with the dilution of sharp end experience, and considering where the diversions are, there are is a strong case for some limitations that remove discretion. The length of the runway, for short-haul a/c doesn't remove rotor and threshold turbulence. Red herring. Back in my days of going there in 80's, for us, it was daytime only. TAP went day/night. Perhaps they were considered more 'local' or moe macho; we were never told. It is a special place and needs respect, not machoism.

Bottom line - the wind issues at Funchal are due to the prevailing wind directions, speeds, and the rapidly rising or uneven terrain north and west of the airport. Which creates gusts and turbulence, and directional instability for any airplane when they are present.
There is nothing that a longer runway does to mitigate those (a wider runway - perhaps 3x normal, might help ;) ).
There is also nothing in the improved NAV systems of aircraft since 1964 that mitigates the weather, since the landing still has to to be hand-flown (and the rougher the winds, the more likely that autoland limits are exceeded.)

The only "changes" that would count would be either changing the prevailing wind direction and speeds (you'd have to talk to The Creator about that) or bulldozing flat a couple of dozen cubic miles of Madeira's dramatic eastern coastline, which I expect would be worse for tourism than the occasional flight diversion.

A quick question: how many accidents has Funchal had that were totally contributed to (cross)wind?

I flew into FNC for years. Always thought the best thing they could do was to evacuate the place and let the NATO Sub Fleet use the place for target practice!!

Vortices and Downbursts
 

Upwind terrain can spawn vortices and downbursts in the downstream wind field.

The shear in a vortex can be twice the wind aloft:eek:

Only once I remeber a nice day there. Landing on 23 with the wind reported calm. Landing on 05 with the wind reported calm was as bumpy as with the wind reported just within limits. If I had any saying I would close down this airport and build hotels on the site. Then use Porto Santo as the main airport and use high speed ferries to take people to and from Madeira.

Madeira’s economy is totally dependant on tourism.
Could a review of the crosswind limits be a result of this concern?

It could be seen as a risk management issue. Reduce the x-wind restrictions and reduce the diversions; but then after the first accident due to winds, and possibly combined with rain, watch the effect on tourism.

air europe had a 757 bang the nose wheel up though the cockpit floor and I think monarch too had a prang (maybe that was GIB?)

as for catastrophes a newish type to FNC a TAP 727-200 landed long and went off the end down the cliff - very nasty - only a few survivors - runway was not extended back then.
TAP Flight 425 was a regular service from Brussels to Funchal with an en route stop at Lisbon. Weather conditions at Madeira were poor. It was raining and a 6/8 cumulus overcast at 1500 feet with a visibility of 3000m made for a challenging approach.
The first NDB approach to runway 24 was discontinued at the 'MAD' NDB because the crew hadn't established visual contact with the runway. Heavy rain showers were reported, but the flight crew reported seeing the runway lights when over the 'MAD' NDB for the second time. The aircraft touched down 2000 feet past the threshold with just 3000 feet runway length remaining. Thrust reversers were deployed and spoilers extended, but the 727 aquaplaned slightly and could not be stopped on the runway. The Boeing overran and plunged over a steep bank. It struck a stone bridge, shearing off the right wing. It then crashed almost vertically on to a beach about 130 feet below the level of the airport, bursting in flames.
The Commission of Inquiry established as a probable cause of the accident the impossibility to decelerate the aircraft and to stop in the length of the runway due to, probably, the following factors:
- Very bad weather conditions at the time of landing;
- Possible existence of conditions for hydroplaning;
- Landing at a speed of Vref + 19 knots;
- Landing long with a long "flare";
- Sudden directional correction after touchdown on the runway.

SATA (CH) super caravelle crashed into the sea turning final at night (2 captains - one checking the other for FNC which should have been done during daylight) some survivors

Local news website reporting that in the first four months of 2018 there were 496 diversions from FNC due wind outside limits. A remarkable number though I suspect they are counting all the codeshare flight numbers rather than aircraft.

when there was all the hoo ha St Helena quite a few posters on pprune thought they should have had TAP do the trials for that reason...

General consensus is to keep the current limits. Yep I agree but IMHO they are too high already.

I've been going since before the extension and other than a longer runway it's worse now, especially RW23. It's closer to the hills and the rotors off the stilts are worse than before. As for improvements in aeroplanes? Bollox! Lower wing loadings on newer types added to slower reacting FBW machines make it, if anything, worse now.

A bit like CAP 371 vs EASA limits. I'll keep a copy of the old limits and stick with scientifically derived figures not commercially driven ones. Me diverting? I couldn't give a sh1t about the pax complaining, after 35 years of flying I know my limits. So long as they are alive to complain, my job's a good'un.

I've had 4 flights into Funchal last year, only 1 landing :-) totally uneconomical. As FOs we are not allowed to be PFs but I do have experience flying into turbulent airports as PF, mainly Dubrovnik, Split and north parts of Norway like Evenes or Bodö. Personally I think Dubrovnik can be as bumpy as Funchal (if you think not I am guessing you only fly there during the summer and not winter when the Bora wind is prevailing with 40-70kt winds). Flying the bus as a local I was taught it had to be done with Auto Thrust off, set the value and do not chase the speed, we basically did not go idle before "firm" touchdown. This does require pilots to want to fly manually to be "in shape" and you get used to it. But if I had to land at Funchal with Autothrust going all over the place (eng going idle at 50ft due windshift) and with "rusty" handflying i would be ****scared!! So companies with SOP that do not allow pilots to fly raw data (When I say raw data I mean that, only pitch and thrust nothing else, no AT no bird) should not be allowed to fly to Funchal! So can a pilot from TAP, Croatia Airlines, Wideröe with multiple experience fly to Funchal (or equivalent) with increased wind limits? No problems! Can a lowcost 3000 hour captain that only flys magenta line (as some SOPs are) do it with increased limits and with same safety? I think not.

Wind Behavior Over Bridges
 

Here in Southern Alberta 50 kt winds are commonplace. There's an interesting effect transitioning from a bridge approach on an embankment to the bridge itself - as in a sudden increase in crosswind that can shift your car a couple feet over a in a blink of your eye.

I expect the elevated runway would be subject to the same effect. It would be interesting to record wind at various points along the runway and plug that data into sims.