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Originally Posted by Carbon Bootprint
(Post 10131189)
I find several videos there, but none that seem to deal with SW1380. Am I missing something? :confused:
https://www.wsj.com/video/southwest-flight-1380-what-happened-onboard/366C7463-2DD5-4AF8-ABCD-ADF6510D3401.html?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1 cant figure out how to edit this new fubarproved system Sorry And I now am able to delete that previous mess - message ( I think ) |
That works, Conso. Thanks.
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Thanks for that excellent Wall Street Journal piece, Conso. It brings home to me, again, what a wonderfully calming presence Capt Shults has. Under great pressure, she manages to speak in a conversational way in plain English.
No, it's not on fire, but part of it's missing. They said there's a hole, and ....... someone went out. airsound |
Here is another good article from WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/southwe...ent-1524834000 Southwest 1380 Pilots Steered a Well-Timed Descent Abrupt dive was needed to get to a breathable altitude; ‘you can’t do it slower’ By April 27, 2018 9:00 a.m. EJo Craven McGinty |
Did anyone see any confirmed reports of ear problems in any of the passengers?
I'd have expected a few ruptured eardrums with the rate of decompression when the window went. Possible that some may even have ended up bent. There was a report of a passenger standing with his back against the empty window port. It would be interesting to see what happened with cabin altitude at various stages of the descent. Obviously a sudden drop to drop the masks. But did the fellows butt in the window make any difference? To cabin altitude, that is. Not denigrating his efforts in any way.) |
Originally Posted by WingNut60
(Post 10132408)
I'd have expected a few ruptured eardrums with the rate of decompression when the window went.
Possible that some may even have ended up bent. Obviously a sudden drop to drop the masks. But did the fellows butt in the window make any difference? To cabin altitude, that is. |
I wonder what altitude the cabin finally reached. It is the descent, asa much as the climb, where ear problems can occur. A few decades ago there was an Air Europe B757, out of Bangor I believe. They decompressed at crz level. During the emergency descent there were numerous complaints amongst pax & CA's of ear damage/problems. I don't know what the cabin climbed to. If the cabin climbs to crz level, or above 25.000', and then descends at 6000fpm there is a strong chance of ear drum problems.
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Originally Posted by Bleve
(Post 10132633)
I'm curious about that as well. I suspect that they were only able to pull the lady in after the cabin and outside air pressures were approximately equal. After that the cabin would have been fully depressurised and any air loss from the cabin would have been due to a venturi effect. A butt in the window might slow/stop that. But was it enough to create an effective seal? Did the cabin start to repressurise? Was the gentleman stuck there until the cabin was depressurised after landing? Did he suffer any injuries - eg a Petechial Rash or worse? |
Originally Posted by RAT 5
(Post 10132703)
I wonder what altitude the cabin finally reached. It is the descent, asa much as the climb, where ear problems can occur. A few decades ago there was an Air Europe B757, out of Bangor I believe. They decompressed at crz level. During the emergency descent there were numerous complaints amongst pax & CA's of ear damage/problems. I don't know what the cabin climbed to. If the cabin climbs to crz level, or above 25.000', and then descends at 6000fpm there is a strong chance of ear drum problems.
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Somewhere there should be design or test data- regulations which would accommodate the loss of one window at cruise altitude. |
Originally Posted by lomapaseo
(Post 10132965)
One of the impediments against the early SST proposals was the cruise altitude vs decompression rate vs the size of the holes made by a bursting turbine disk.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...r/AC_25-20.pdf |
Originally Posted by CONSO
(Post 10132954)
it was likely that the pressurization system reduced the rate of depressurization.
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Originally Posted by CONSO
(Post 10132954)
My GUESS is that it may have reached 16,000 to 18,000 feet, since it was likely that the pressurization system reduced the rate of depressurization.
http://www.b737.org.uk/images/main_o...lve_ng_new.jpg |
Depressurization and Ears: Because of the design of the eustachean tubes, decreasing outside pressure rarely causes problems in a healthy ear. Increasing outside pressure, as in a rapid descent in air, and even more so in water, can cause what divers call “ear squeeze”, which can be very painful and rupture an eardrum if not managed properly. That’s why you hear far more babies crying during descent than during ascent. |
President Trump will meet with the crew of Southwest 1380 :ok: :
Donald Trump to meet with crew of Southwest Airlines Flight 1380 FILED UNDER SOUTHWEST AIRLINES AT19 HRS AGO Written byhttps://dallasnews.imgix.net/1506471...es&facepad=1.7Claire Z. Cardona, Breaking News ProducerConnect with Claire Z. Cardona President Donald Trump will meet Tuesday with the crew of the Southwest Airlines flight that made an emergency landing this month after a deadly mid-flight engine failure. They will meet at the White House, but no further details were released about the planned interaction between the president and the Flight 1380 crew. In a photo provided by the U.S. Navy, Lt. Tammie Jo Shults with her F/A-18A jet in 1992. Shults, one of the Navy's first female fighter pilots, was in command of Southwest Airlines Flight 1380 when its engine exploded on April 17, 2018; for the next 40 minutes, she maneuvered the plane safely to an emergency landing in Philadelphia.(THOMAS P. MILNE/NYT)
Passenger Jennifer Riordan, 43, was partially sucked out of a window and killed on the April 17 flight when a fan blade broke and caused the engine to fail. The Dallas-bound plane was safely piloted to an emergency stop in Philadelphia by Captain Tammie Jo Shults, who has been commended for her composure during the crisis and compassion after the landing. Once on the ground, Shults, a Texan and former Navy fighter pilot, walked up and down the aisle hugging passengers. Also on board were first officer Darren Ellisor and three other crew members whose names have not been released. The flight was carrying 144 passengers from New York's La Guardia Airport. While the cockpit crew worked to land the plane, witnesses said the flight attendants tried to help save the injured woman, assisted passengers with oxygen masks and explained where the plane was headed. In a written statement, the crew said they "were simply doing our jobs." |
Gota tellya, Bubba, but 26 years ago I would have been "interested" in Miss Tammie, with a buncha other folks, pilots or not. Heh heh.
I never had a single problem with the female pilots back in the day, especially in the Viper. That rascal was made for small people and you did not have to be a 200 pound gorilla to handle it just fine. But we in USAF didn't get females in fighters until 1995 or 96 or so. And the Navy restricted Miss Tammie to "training" outfits. All that being said, the lady done good to get into fighters and then now for over twenty years as a custodian of more than a hundred SLF folks that depended on her to get them here and there. No doubt the lady is getting the attention because she is a lady!!! So let her be a good example for anyone that wants to be a pilot and stop all the "diversity" emphasis. A good pilot is a good pilot. Gums opines... |
Originally Posted by gums
(Post 10134594)
Gota tellya, Bubba, but 26 years ago I would have been "interested" in Miss Tammie, with a buncha other folks, pilots or not. Heh heh.
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Originally Posted by Cloudtopper
(Post 10123650)
Considering the gravity of this situation , 2 serious failures and memory actions accordingly plus a flap non normal checklist - landing with flap 5.
........... Significant investigative effort should also be placed on examining the procedures and why the airline has had a similar occurrence 2 years back . Out . |
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Originally Posted by Lost in Saigon https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif I assume the un-named male First Officer was the Pilot Flying during the descent and initial approach, while Captain Tammie Jo Shults ran the checklist and the radio. (except when the FO responded to ATC clearing SWA1380 direct to Philadelphia) On final, when they switched to the tower frequency, Captain Shults took over flying while the First Officer worked the radio. (after landing the Captain went on the radio again)
Originally Posted by JPJP
(Post 10123014)
Other way around - The PF would be working the radios, and the FO would be running the checklist. If the FO answered a radio call it may indicate that the CA was communicating with the FAs or making a PA. On approach the roles may return to normal, with the majority of checklists complete.
Obviously, it’s the CA perogative if she wants to run the checklist/manage. “The captain took over flying duties and the first officer began running emergency checklists. The captain requested a diversion from the air traffic controller;” |
Pilot and copilot are going to be on ABCs 20/20 Friday, May 11 at 10 p.m. ET.
Summary of the program with some information on what the pilot vs copilot was doing. I don't think anyone in this thread mentioned the delay in communicating with flight attendants: "A few minutes before landing, the pilots were finally got in touch with the flight attendants, who informed them that there were injured passengers and that a window had shattered." https://abcnews.go.com/US/pilots-saf...ry?id=55041588 |
PasstTense
Thanks for the link. I was surprised about the person tense used in the wording. Most of it seemed to be attribital to the pilots until the section in quotes "A few minutes before landing, the pilots were finally got in touch with the flight attendants, who informed them that there were injured passengers and that a window had shattered." In my read this signifies an opinion by the writer that I do not share. Perhaps it would make more sense if the words used were only from the pilots or from the NTSB prelim summary |
A good extract from the interview in today's London Times. "So long as you have altitude and ideas you are OK. We had both". Yep.
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Speed is life, but altitude is life insurance.
Gums sends... |
Here's a re-creation of the event done by an Embry-Riddle prof in a CRJ sim. She demoes stickshaker, GPWS and other stuff on the single engine descent and approach.
https://news.erau.edu/headlines/erau...-on-abcs-2020/ |
SLF Dumb Question; Why does the stickshaker go off? I thought that was for stall warning. Would an engine out while in the cruise reduce airspeed so quickly as to near stall speed?
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An engine failure at any altitude should not devolve into a stall. That performance would not pass an annual simulator check by a mile. I suspect the producers wanted more of a show. Scary lights, warbler, stick pusher, etc. At least I hope that’s what it was. |
A known event. B737 family. >FL350. Engine failure in crz at night then developed into a stick shaker event very quickly. I suspect the startle factor and lack of experiencing such an event in the sim might have led the crew into focusing on the engine failure rather than ANC.
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The plane was ferried to the boneyard at VCV today:
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Flaws in jet engine fan blades like one that cracked and broke loose in April, killing a Southwest Airlines Co. passenger, have been discovered on planes operated by several carriers, and the manufacturer is moving to further tighten inspections.
General Electric Co., part of a venture that makes the engines, found a cracked blade during post-accident inspections of another Southwest plane, and spotted four or five more in those of other airlines, Southwest Chief Operating Officer Michael Van de Ven said Thursday on a conference call to discuss earnings. “We expect to formalize the interval in a new service bulletin that will be issued in coming days,” GE spokesman Perry Bradley said in a statement. Service bulletins are non-binding recommendations on maintenance, but are almost always made mandatory by aviation regulators. Southwest has already cut the inspection interval for older engines almost in half, from 3,000 flights to 1,600, Chief Executive Officer Gary Kelly said in an interview. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-26/southwest-boosts-inspections-of-engine-involved-in-fatal-failure?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=bd&utm_campaign=headline &cmpId=yhoo.headline&yptr=yahoo Here's a re-creation of the event done by an Embry-Riddle prof in a CRJ sim. She demoes stickshaker, GPWS and other stuff on the single engine descent and approach. |
The NTSB held an investigative hearing last week with witnessess from Southwest, Boeing, CFM and FAA. The public docket was also opened which has inteviews with the flight and cabin crews and passengers, CVR transcript and FDR data. The link to the hearing page, which in turn has a link to the docket, is https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pag...8MA142-IH.aspx
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Airspeed, altitude, ideas. Any two and you’ll be ok. |
NTSB Docket
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Edit: I looked at the wrong graph. Apparently there is no large difference in magnitude between the engines... rather looks like Eng 1 vibration goes way down before it disintegrates. Very hard to tell with the scaling being that extreme for Eng 1. Looks like either the vibration went down to 0, or the rendering of the graph is not very good. |
Can the engines warn themselves about high vibrations or is it up to the crew to look at the gauges? I know the manufacturers have very advanced algorithms to detect wear/maintenance needs and so on, but how clever is the onboard software? |
With a few notable exceptions, Boeing doesn't have any recommendations regarding high engine vibrations other than 'crew awareness'. There are other potential causes for engine vibrations other than imminent engine failure - e.g. ice accumulation on the fan/compressor blades (which can usually be addressed by temporarily increasing the engine power setting).
Even when the vibrations are the result of engine damage, you don't want the FADEC unilaterally shutting the engine down - the problem could easily affect multiple engines (e.g. birdstrike) and the last thing you want to do is do an auto-shutdown of all engines. The one exception for high vibes that I recall was for the RB211-524 engine. After a couple of bearing failure related fan shaft fractures that culminated in uncontained engine failures, if the engine vibes exceeded some threshold the crew was instructed to shut it down. |
Originally Posted by lomapaseo
(Post 10323605)
We really don't want to introduce spurious unwarranted engine shutdowns, so we still rely on the pilot to use other senses as well.
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I took a gander at the CVR transcript from the docket, and I think it's a really interesting illustration of professionalism, competence, and humanity. The pilots apparently intended to pull the CVR breaker at some point after landing and either failed or couldn't find it (p.65,p.86). So there is a lot more than we usually get of the aftermath of an incident- including debriefing between the pilots and with with the union and ARFF. The CVR is not fully turned off until after the airplane is towed away.
They did have to skip a few checklist items, but in totality they acted efficiently to perform a safe landing. (Engine Fire and Engine Severe Damage checklists seem to have been completed to the best of their ability.) It seems that there was a lot of mutual understanding or non-verbal communication not captured on the CVR, which is interesting. Given the situation they faced, which included 1. Uncontained engine failure, 2. Resultant control problems due to airflow changes, 3. Loss of half of their hydraulics, 4. Rapid depressurization, and 5. Severely injured passenger, I'd say they did a solid job. At the beginning of the incident there's not much intelligible audio, possibly because of the crew masks. Some things I noted: They did not make contact with the cabin crew until about 12 minutes into the incident- they were focused on descending. The captain decided to do flaps 5 landing because of possible control surface damage and controllability issues. They knew pretty much right away that the passenger had died, and informed the airline within about 7 minutes of landing when they called dispatch. p.67 - The FO gets annoyed when scheduling calls him and he tries to get them off the phone as soon as possible. p.70 - The FO summarized the incident thusly to the union rep on the phone: I think the engine blew up I think a fan blade pierced our window I think we had a rapid decompression because of that. that's what I think happened. p.78-81 - The pilots debrief each other and try to get their story straight about skipping checklist items. Nothing nefarious here! The captain takes responsibility and says they FO shouldn't try to cover for her. Captain: I just wanted to know you don't have to defend my skipping of some of the checklists to get on the ground. |
Reuters
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN1XT1EK
U.S. safety board wants Boeing to redesign 737 NG part after fatal Southwest accident WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board on Tuesday called on Boeing Co (BA.N) to redesign the fan cowl structure on all 737 NG planes and retrofit existing planes after an April 2019 incident in which a woman was killed on a Southwest Airlines (LUV.N) plane after an engine failure caused by a fan blade. The board said the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration should require Boeing to determine the fan blade impact location or locations on the engine fan case and redesign the structure to minimize the potential of a catastrophic failure. The board did not fault Boeing’s analysis in the mid-1990s when it developed the case. Boeing and the FAA did not immediately comment. NTSB Chairman Robert Sumwalt acknowledged the retrofit could be expensive. “This accident underlines the vulnerability of the fan case to become separated when the fan blade detaches at a location that was not anticipated,” Sumwalt said after the hearing. The NTSB did not call for the planes to be grounded and noted that airlines are now inspecting the fan blades on a more regular basis. Jennifer Riordan of New Mexico, a 43-year-old Wells Fargo vice president and mother of two, was killed after the engine exploded and shattered a plane window on Flight 1380. She was the first person killed in a U.S. passenger airline accident since 2009. The accident occurred 20 minutes into the flight when a fan blade fractured as a result of a fatigue crack on a Boeing 737-700 jet powered by two CFM International CFM56-7B engines after taking off from New York’s LaGuardia Airport. The plane, bound for Dallas, diverted to Philadelphia International Airport. Eight of the 144 passengers suffered minor injuries. The NTSB had been investigating a 2016 engine failure on another Southwest 737-700 at the time of the fatal incident. The incidents in both flights were what is known as a “fan blade out” (FBO) event. The board noted that there are 14,600 CFM56-7B engines in service with 356,000 fan blades on the Boeing planes, with 400 million flights over more than two decades and two reported engine failures. Tammie Jo Shults, the flight’s captain, recounted in her book “Nerves of Steel” published last month, that the engine explosion felt “like we’ve been T-boned by a Mack truck.” She said that the 737-700 rolled to the left and pulled into a dive, but that she and the co-pilot were able to level off the plane. The engine on the plane’s left side spewed bits of metal when it blew apart, shattering a window and causing rapid cabin depressurization, the NTSB said. In 2018, the NTSB said two passengers eventually pulled Riordan, who was buckled into her seat, back inside the plane. CFM International, the engine manufacturer, is a transatlantic joint venture between General Electric Co (GE.N) and France’s Safran SA (SAF.PA). Reporting by David Shepardson; Editing by Gerry Doyle, Alex Richardson and Dan Grebler |
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