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Ladies & Gents just so you are aware this morning's "Times" report on the crash seems to be a complete cut 'n paste job off this forum
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Originally Posted by arnicopanday
(Post 10082459)
Long time lurker on this forum. Finally signed up....
... Am trying to upload a sketch of what I saw but as a new poster here I don't seem to be able to post a link yet. |
Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry
(Post 10082985)
Ladies & Gents just so you are aware this morning's "Times" report on the crash seems to be a complete cut 'n paste job off this forum
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Thanks for the terrific account Arnicopanday.
I now wonder if what seemed like confusion on part of the Cap between 02 and 20, was in fact him flying from one end of the lot to the other, picking runways as he went. Incredible if so. |
some video has turned up. from Aviation Safety Net - "Video shows US-Bangla Airlines flight #BS211 during go around after attempting to land on runway 02 at Kathmandu Airport. The accident happened a few minutes later: " |
From 1at:
BS211 reported to be " .. on final RWY 02 .." TOWER consequently responded ".. continue approach ..". TOWER: "BS211 ... RWY 02 cleared to land" BS211 confirmed ".. cleared to land.." assuming RWY 02 Lots of speculation, but this seems very clear and simple. The runway is long enough for a -8 to land, takeoff and land again. We hear the captain has survived so we wait to hear why they didn't KISS. |
Originally Posted by cbradio
(Post 10083477)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBgcC3OlqfQ
some video has turned up. from Aviation Safety Net - "Video shows US-Bangla Airlines flight #BS211 during go around after attempting to land on runway 02 at Kathmandu Airport. The accident happened a few minutes later: " Sorry, more than 20 years I've been there:bored: |
Arnicopanday - welcome to the forum and thank you for your (dramatic) first post. If you find a way to post the sketch that would be brilliant.
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crazy location!
The caption in the video above says it was taken in Gagalphedi, approx 7 km NE of the Runway 20 threshold at the base of high mountains. Amazing that they got that low so far from the runway.
It looks like they flew north past the airport, right up to the northern end of the Kathmandu Valley and turned around at the last moment before impacting with terrain there, then missed 20 while heading back south (shortly after this video clip). |
Originally Posted by RAT 5
(Post 10083502)
We hear the captain has survived so we wait to hear why they didn't KISS.
US-Bangla plane crash: Pilot Abid, 3 other cabin crew confirmed dead |
That account from arnicopanday plus the new video puts the plane's path quiet clear now . The place of video is Gagalphedi , it is due N-NE of the airport and 7-8 kms far. search it on google or bing , my new account ! no link
when I saw the plane fly very low across the airport buildings, turning from a northwesterly heading to a southwesterly heading. From my viewpoint It flew BEHIND the airport control tower, somewhere around the domestic terminal. (A taxi driver on the domestic parking lot reported that its wing almost touched the roof of the Nepal Airlines Hangar). I request him do this on maps , post it here Another wild guess, The domesticTerminal parking bay ? , up North angled to 20, looks alot like a Runway . something like Runway 15(!), if it were to exist? \\ . Look at the maps , It is Narrow , elongated , a path extends straight to a hangar across the main runway . Did they made an approach towards this ? unknowingly? |
One item that I haven't seen mentioned here
https://scroll.in/latest/871866/nepa...ation-underway Defending the pilots, the airlines [US-Bangla Airlines chief executive Imran Asif] said Captain Abid Sultan, who survived the crash, had more than 5,000 hours of flying experience and was specially trained to land at the airport. Sultan is a former Bangladesh Air Force pilot and was also a flying instructor with the airline, AP reported. |
Originally Posted by cbradio
(Post 10083477)
"Video shows US-Bangla Airlines flight #BS211 during go around after attempting to land on runway 02 at Kathmandu Airport. The accident happened a few minutes later: "
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10083460)
Any chance you could post a link or quote a section of the article?
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Originally Posted by RAT 5
(Post 10083502)
From 1at:
BS211 reported to be " .. on final RWY 02 .." TOWER consequently responded ".. continue approach ..". TOWER: "BS211 ... RWY 02 cleared to land" BS211 confirmed ".. cleared to land.." assuming RWY 02 Lots of speculation, but this seems very clear and simple. The runway is long enough for a -8 to land, takeoff and land again. We hear the captain has survived so we wait to hear why they didn't KISS. I suspect this one will go into the text books. After a few minutes not only were they lost spatially but it sounds as if they'd lost touch with what they wanted to do.... horrible |
Re CRM gradient is there cultural component as well, I.e. Go Around w female FO may cause losing face?
I still wonder if Cap attempted to take over both Comms and PF duty. |
At this point, does anyone other than the bereft, insurers and lawyers sincerely care about this crash? Abbott and Costello crash a transport category aircraft in VMC with Curly and Moe in the tower. (Curly and Moe were two members of the comedy trio known as the "Three Stooges". Abbott & Costello were a comedy duo).
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the sketch
There's the sketch of what I think I saw (~last 10 minutes of flight)
It is on imgur: /a/Parhr |
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I flew there yesterday. Spoke to our AME who witnessed the final moments of the flight. The flight path he described is slightly to the north of the one sketched by arnicopanday. He was at stand 1 looking towards the tower when the aircraft appeared in a left bank. It narrowly avoided the control tower and a lamp post at the edge of the apron. He claims he saw the aircraft pitch up to avoid the tail of the Thai 777 before hitting the ground in a left bank just beyond taxiway C. He was not sure if it touched down on the runway or the ground just after the runway. As per him it was the lady FO’s first flight to KTM.
^^ The above is a second hand information so I can’t vouch for the accuracy but it seems to correlate with what the other eyewitnesses saw. |
read the updated at The Aviation Herald, the last paragraph above the comments sheds some light..
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry
(Post 10083658)
Paywalled.. and I'm on the road but they regularly pick up stories from this site...
Kathmandu crash pilots confused runway codes Charles Bremner March 14 2018, 12:01am The Times There was confusion among disoriented pilots and stressed air traffic controllers in the moments before the crash of a Bangladeshi aircraft in Nepal on Monday with the loss of 49 lives. Kathmandu airport and US-Bangla Airways blamed each other for the events that caused the Bombardier Dash 8 turboprop aircraft to plunge into a field just off the mountain-ringed single runway on the edge of the Nepalese capital. The four crew died but 22 passengers survived by escaping the burning wreckage. Recordings of six minutes of radio conversations between the pilots and the control tower showed deep confusion over which direction the airliner was to land in as it approached and began circling on a flight from Dhaka. Captain Abid Sultan and Prithula Rashid, the first officer, were cleared to land from the south on runway 02 but controllers told them “you are going towards runway 20”, approaching the strip from the opposite end. “Do not turn towards runway 20, turn right,” the controller said. The pilots were nevertheless cleared to land on 20, then seemed to be heading back for 02. The controllers, who were dealing with several other aircraft, displayed confusion over the instructions they were giving. When the airliner appeared low over the airport unaligned with any runway, a controller barked: “I say again, turn!” On the same frequency a voice in Nepali said: “They appear to be extremely disoriented. Looks like they are really confused.” It was not clear whether the speaker was a pilot or a controller. The Canadian-made jet came down just after flying over the control tower in a turn as the pilots apparently manoeuvred to start a new approach. Passengers reported a sharp turn just before the crash. “I had asked the air hostess, what is happening, is everything fine?’ She gave a thumbs up, but I could see she was panicking,” said Ashish Ranjit, 35, who escaped through a window on the aircraft’s right. “It was so low and it took such sharp turns.” Imran Asif, chief executive of the airline, said: “We suspect wrong signals from Kathmandu air traffic control room might have led to the crash.” Captain Sultan was a highly experienced pilot who had landed more than 100 times at Kathmandu, it said. Raj Kumar Chetri, general manager of the airport, said: “The tower repeatedly asked if the pilot was OK and the reply was ‘Yes’.” |
This accident simply confirms that the most dangerous manoeuvre in civil aviation these days is a circling approach. It has to be planned and carefully pre briefed, with a clear understanding of what the escape plan is when it all goes wrong.
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Maybe someone can shed some light for me, i am still confused as to what runway they where supposed to be landing on, seems they flew the approach on 02, and appears to be to a circle to land on 20? but ATC transcript stresses they are not to land on 20 because of a conflict?
Looking at the sketch there appears to be an older disused runway and from the sketched drawing appears they maybe mistook that? |
777fly- circling approaches were banned from most major's SOPs donkeys years ago. Very dangerous. Big difference to letting down with an aid to visual minima. The intention then to break out for a left or right downwind to the runway in use. Good fun in the little stuff but care needed in the big stuff. Wouldn't do it in anything at KTM.
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I dont agree with the last post entirely.Some time ago when my job was to route and airport check Captains into VNKT, one of the required checks was a VOR approach to 02 but followed with a circling approach to 20.This was practiced first in the SIM.The actual circle, WX permitting followed.No one failed to my knowledge, but I would not call it an easy exercise.Very good planning and handling was required.This was in a very large jet.
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It was F/O’s first flight into KTM ? Was this a training flight ?
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ATC says " you are going to 20" probably because they saw aircraft visually going right downwind for 20 having been too high for landing on 02. Now there's a potential problem because the next aircraft is already on finals for 02. For the uninitiated it is not normal to have aircraft landing from opposite directions at the same time on the same strip of concrete, so 211 has to keep out of the way until the runway is clear again.
One clue to this accident is likely to be that 211 had cancelled IFR and therefore the responsibility for avoiding other aircraft was his and not ATC. |
Originally Posted by Landflap
(Post 10084480)
777fly- circling approaches were banned from most major's SOPs donkeys years ago. Very dangerous. Big difference to letting down with an aid to visual minima. The intention then to break out for a left or right downwind to the runway in use. Good fun in the little stuff but care needed in the big stuff. Wouldn't do it in anything at KTM.
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Originally Posted by piratepete
(Post 10084489)
I dont agree with the last post entirely.Some time ago when my job was to route and airport check Captains into VNKT, one of the required checks was a VOR approach to 02 but followed with a circling approach to 20.This was practiced first in the SIM.The actual circle, WX permitting followed.No one failed to my knowledge, but I would not call it an easy exercise.Very good planning and handling was required.This was in a very large jet.
The plane, which was flying from the Bangladeshi capital, Dhaka, was a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 turboprop and was 17 years old. |
ATC says " you are going to 20" probably because they saw aircraft visually going right downwind for 20 having been too high for landing on 02
And then the question arises is how they came to be too high to land a turbo prop on a mega long runway. I'm not familiar with the approach flown: I heard it was a VOR/DME. Why would that be so difficult to be Soooo high at visual time? |
Originally Posted by iflytb20
(Post 10084190)
. As per him it was the lady FO’s first flight to KTM.
^^ The above is a second hand information so I can’t vouch for the accuracy but it seems to correlate with what the other eyewitnesses saw. |
I'm not familiar with the approach flown: I heard it was a VOR/DME. 20 is only VFR/Visual APP . The Nepalese AIP is online if you want to check the various published approaches : Civil Aviation Authority Of Nepal |
watching the very tiny video of him climbing suddenly while turning toward the south east makes me wonder if he may have fallen to somotographic illusion to some degree, hence the descent as he crossed the runway and subsequent crash
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3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10084802)
Just a reminder ; there is no published VOR-DME approach for runway 20 , only for 02 .
20 is only VFR/Visual APP . |
Runway 20 is authorized for daytime circle to land: |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10084843)
Yes, of course and all local domestic carriers are using 20 but but my point was that there is no published VOR-DME Approach for runway 20.
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Originally Posted by portmanteau
(Post 10084640)
One clue to this accident is likely to be that 211 had cancelled IFR and therefore the responsibility for avoiding other aircraft was his and not ATC. |
aterpster
That implied to me there were no IAP CTL minima for Runway 20 |
Have they found FDR/CVR?
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