Unconfirmed report that Bombardier has sold the Q400 program
 

FYI:

http://www.fliegerfaust.com/

I have no idea whether this is fact or fake news!

Bloomberg were suggesting a week ago, before the Airbus deal was announced, that both the Q400 and CRJ programmes could be up for sale:

Bombardier Is Exploring Options for Its Aerospace Businesses

They were talking of moving a lot of production to Russia a few years back........... they've never really been able to compete with the ATR-72 aand the compnay focus on the C series hasn't helped

1076 ATR variants have been built since inception while 1225 variations of the DHC8 have been built. I'd say they held their own just fine.

ATR production (all models) has reached over 1,400 at this stage, with msn 1455 in service with Air Tahiti.

The management team at Bombardier (mostly former aviation industry management types) must have realized months ago when they took over that this company had numerous aircraft, both business and commercial, that were directly competing with each other. Never mind their industry competitors.

That reality needed to be addressed. It’s taking time but it certainly seems like things are being addresssed by them.

I think what they’re doing or at least seem to be doing, is consolidating into one version of Bombardier Aerospace. They seem clearly to be focused on the Global Vision and New Generation Challenger ‘50’ Series business Jets. 650 and 350. Learjet is the orphan that never really found a home.

The Dash 8 Series has paid its’ way and found a seat in the aeroplane hall of fame but, Regional Airlines will no longer order these aircraft types in large numbers as they did in the past and Bombardier knows that. Embraer doesn’t, if they’re seriously considering the introduction of a ‘clean sheet’ turbo prop. But good luck to them if they do.

Success has not found the C series yet. The jury will be out for awhile on that.

Willie, you're quite right the Dash 8 has found its niche although it has suffered badly where price is the only competitive advantage. The Dash 8 suffered over ten years from under-investment in the product but this has been corrected recently and it is now regaining market share. The competition with ATR has been fierce, based largely on price, but there is now an appreciation the Dash 8 has better economics and much better performance anywhere there is high terrain (i.e. the Rockies), high temperatures (India) or long stages (i.e. Porter).

With the new turboprop announced by PWC this week in the 4,500 SHP to 7,000 SHP bracket for service entry in 2023-2025, a whole new range of possibilities is opened up.

" I'd say they held their own just fine"

getting wiped in sales recently -

From MRO Network......

ATR,has a backlog of 250 aircraft—mostly for the 68-78-seat ATR 72-600, while Bombardier has only 31 orders left to fulfill for its slightly larger Q400 turboprop.

In-service numbers also support ATR’s dominance: Aviation Week’s 2017 Commercial Aviation Fleet & MRO Forecast estimates a global ATR 72 fleet of 921 aircraft in 2017, versus 539 Q400s. By 2022 there will be almost 1,300 ATR 72s in service, Aviation Week predicts.

ATR 72 production started 1989-90. Q400 production started 1999-2000. I'd say those are pretty comparable numbers given the 72 had a 10 year lead. Of course between 1989 and 2000 Dehavilland/Boeing Canada/Bombardier was pumping out lots of -100s/200s/-300s.

A more accurate sales/production comparison would be between the ATR 72-600 and Q400.

But the Q400 will always lag behind the ATR in sales no matter it's near-universal performance/technological/economic superiority. They simply don't have the production capacity to make them quick enough - and I believe this hurts sales when it comes to customers waiting for loonnnggg lead times.

That oft-quoted figure of 31 airplanes (June 2017) is inaccurate as well, there's been an additional 25 firm orders from SpiceJet, with options for 25 more. Plus a couple random orders as well.

Having done several studies comparing the two types, it is apples and oranges, cannot bluntly state that one is more economical than the other, it all depends on the role.

The ATR is unbeatable in seat cost for stage lenghts under 500 NM in high infrastructure cost (airport & navigation fees) environments like Europe. The ATR 72 has the lightest airframe weight per seat of any airliner in operation, period (beating the 380 & 787 too). However its cost advantage starts disappearing quickly on longer routes due to the low speed, as hourly costs (crew, mainenance, ownership) start kicking in.

The Q400 was designed to compete with jets on under 1000 NM stage lenghts, where the speed disadvantage is not so significant commercially, however fuel economies are major (at time of launch trip fuel was about 50% of that needed by similar capacity jets, eg Fokker 70). Modern RJ-s have eroded this cost advantage, and the ERJ comes very close to the ATR-s empty weight per seat figure, leaving less role for the Q400.

On the other hand, there is nothig remotely similar on the drawing board to challenge the ATR on short regional routes. However the main competition on such short sectors is now high-speed train, not surprisingly most ATR sales these days are to regions with no such rail infrastructure.

I am sure things would have been different if they had taken up my suggestion and called it the 'fly-doo' :-)

It will be interesting to see what the Q3 2017 Program Status Report (due out in a week or two) says.

Lear 45 an orphan? BBD Lear designed, built it and has a huge installed base to support. Hardly an orphan, true, it might be dead in the water, sales wise.

Interesting that ATR orders have continued even tho fuel prices have dropped significantly...............

@HH,

Much of ATR's advantage comes from the lightness, on short routes MTOW driven airport and ATC fees can be as much as 1/3 to 1/2 of total DOC. As mentioned above, the ATR 72 has the lowest OEW per seat of any airliner in operation, and does not really have competition in its class.

Real pity ATR support is probably the worst of any OEM. With better support I suspect sales would be ever better?

... Regions which are Indonesia, Philippines, India ... and other Asian countries, with big population, so ATR can rest in peace and continues making a fortune nowadays with those customers.
If you take all the DHC-8, yes the numbers are quite high - now if take only the Q-400, it's not going so well. So as you see, different ways to display the market results.

Yes yes, we know :rolleyes: bad customer support, like Airbus, and in spite of that, so many being sold - so not a real worry

Any possible correlation with the fact that it has no real competition in its class... ?

I've read that the Q400 suffered sales-wise as Bombadier were pitching both jets and turboprops to the same airlines for quite similar roles....

Correct, the Q400 and the CRJ-200 were quite close in roles & performance. Bombardier pushed the (more expensive) CRJ heavily, offering big discounts to the point of making it look sweet in comparison with the Q400. Paradoxically when said airlines who fell for it realised that the CRJ performance (and reliablity) does not meet the marketing promises, Bombardier offered to take them back and deliver Q400 instead...