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-   -   Boeing Damages Air Force One (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/594587-boeing-damages-air-force-one.html)

p.j.m 13th May 2017 08:40


Originally Posted by paperHanger (Post 9769616)
These guys had previously worked on other oxygen systems, using similar procedures, and there's a bunch of other boeings flying about in a similar condition but meh, no one is keen enough to sort out that mess.

the bigger problem/question is why "oxygen" systems have the same connectors as other systems.

I'm sure this has happened before in the aviation industry, possibly even fuel systems, leading to the wrong fuel being loaded.

DaveReidUK 13th May 2017 09:48

Aircraft have been loaded with the wrong fuel because of confusion over connectors?

Jet II 13th May 2017 13:42


Originally Posted by paperHanger (Post 9769616)
Indeed, but surely the much bigger question is: as the whole "oxygen clean" idea seems to have escaped them, either:

this was the first time any of these 3 had ever worked on an oxygen system

... or ...

These guys had previously worked on other oxygen systems, using similar procedures, and there's a bunch of other boeings flying about in a similar condition but meh, no one is keen enough to sort out that mess.

Thats if they were line mechanics at all. As they were Boeing staff they may have been pulled off the production line where their only access to tooling and spares was 'clean'. A line environment is very different and they may have just done what they thought was OK. Reading the report it sounds as though this error was picked up by inspection so the system is working properly.

Perhaps the lesson is that only trained personel should be working on 'live' aircraft?

Airbubba 13th May 2017 15:24

This isn't the first time in recent memory that faulty depot maintenance involving the O2 system on an Air Force plane by a contractor has led to costly repairs:


Loose nut costs Air Force $62.4 million in accident

By Tom LoBianco, CNN

Updated 9:59 AM ET, Fri August 28, 2015

Washington (CNN)An Air Force reconnaissance airplane caught fire in April, endangering the lives of 27 airmen aboard the plane -- all because a retaining nut connecting oxygen tubing was not tightened properly, accident investigators have determined. The report blamed a private defense contracting company for the accident.

"Failure by L-3 Communications depot maintenance personnel to tighten a retaining nut connecting a metal oxygen tube to a junction fitting above the galley properly caused an oxygen leak. This leak created a highly flammable oxygen-rich environment that ignited," U.S. Air Force investigators wrote in report published August 3.

Investigators determined the ensuing fire caused $62.4 millon in damage to the RC-135V, which electronically snoops on adversaries and relays gathered intelligence to commanders.

L-3 Communications spokesman Bruce Rogowski declined comment and referred questions to the Air Force.
Loose nut costs Air Force $62.4 million in accident - CNNPolitics.com

L-3 maintains the secure phone system on Air Force One as I recall but Boeing probably doesn't let them touch the O2 system anymore. ;)

aterpster 14th May 2017 01:01

I thought once the presidential airplanes were delivered to Andrews AFB, forever forward only maintenance would be performed there.

Airbubba 14th May 2017 04:21

Apparently depot level maintenance was originally done by Boeing Wichita until a move to San Antonio in 2012 according to this Air Force Times article:


Investigators also expressed their concerns about a lack of experience at Boeing's San Antonio depot. In 2012, Boeing decided to move its heavy maintenance operation for Air Force One from Wichita, Kansas, to San Antonio, but this move meant 172 Boeing personnel wouldn't meet the required five-year experience requirement. Boeing requested waivers for those 172 employees in February 2015 — including two of the mechanics involved in the oxygen system contamination — and self-assessed those employees' relative inexperience would be a low risk.
https://www.airforcetimes.com/articl...-oxygen-system

ACMS 14th May 2017 06:58

I've seen pictures of SAM 28000 on the ground at Everett for Maintenance by Boeing.

PDR1 14th May 2017 09:26


Originally Posted by Non-Driver (Post 9769630)
I do hope you don't actually work in the aviation industry if that's what you believe about a safety culture.....:ugh:

There is a common misapprehension that a "safety culture" means people can cause or risk death, serious injury or serious property damage without any personal consequences provided they 'fess-up. You see this a lot when there's an accident and the (usually) pilots who are consulted get very vocal if it is suggested the accident report evidence is passed to law-enforcement authorities.

I would suggest that this is not true. A "safety culture" is one in which people admit to any mistakes, omissions etc at the earliest opportunity, regardless of the personal consequences, as a simple matter of personal integrity. The idea that professional people in positions with significant "safety responsibilities" will probably "take the 5th" unless they are given some kind of immunity is frankly unacceptable.

I suggest that this is an example of a safety culture in action because (as I read it) the error was identified and reported as soon as it became evident and in sufficient detail to prevent dangerous outcomes, regardless of the risk of subsequent financial or legal sanction. To close the FRACAS loop it then becomes necessary to undertake whatever technical retraining, organisational redesign and/or disciplinary action are warranted by the nature of the incident.

For qualified aircraft techs to use the "wrong" parts, and an undocumented cleaning process to make them the "right" parts, is more than just a lack of currency in technical training. It violates every basic principle of the MAOS environment. As such "closing the loop" will inevitably involve some disciplinary action. If they were pressured by supervisory/management staff then it doesn't excuse anything (people holding these qualifications are supposed to have the integrity to stand up to that kind of pressure and/or resign if necessary rather than break the rules), but the management/supervisory staff should also receive disciplinary action right up to the first one who blew the whistle.

That's how a safety culture is supposed to work. It's not a cosy stitch-up that allows people in responsible posts to commit heinous "misdeeds" with no fear of any consequences.

TURIN 14th May 2017 10:40

Safety Culture.
 
A safety culture is designed to find out what went wrong and to identify where changes can be made to mitigate a repeat.
It's not there to point the finger of blame and fire people. Nobody would report anything if that was the case.
If an in investigation reveals that a particular individual is a repeat offender and is unable or refuses to mend their ways then yes, redeployment or disciplinary action may be necessary.

It always used to be the job of avionics trades to break down O2 systems as their tools hadn't been anywhere near grease or oil, ever.

In addition, at least one airline I know of used left handed threads on O2 unions and servicing equipment.

aterpster 15th May 2017 00:44


Originally Posted by ACMS (Post 9770474)
I've seen pictures of SAM 28000 on the ground at Everett for Maintenance by Boeing.

I have a mistaken impression.

I recall when the current 747-200 (300) were at Boeing ICT, the Secret Service was deeply involved in the final production process.

Then, more recently I have read that the special MAC squadron at Andrews AFB even overhauls the engines in-house, ostensibly because they do extraordinary care, plus the security.

tdracer 15th May 2017 04:35


I recall when the current 747-200 (300) were at Boeing ICT, the Secret Service was deeply involved in the final production process.
Aterpster, I worked on the current AF1 aircraft when they were in Wichita. While there was certainly USAF security present, if there were any Secret Service personnel around they were really secret because none of us knew of or noticed them. Even the USAF security was far from overbearing - basically the aircraft was in a fenced enclosure with USAF personnel manning the only gate. There was a special enclosure where any equipment that was going on the aircraft was quarantined - one or twice a week they'd bring in bomb sniffing dogs to inspect the equipment before it was allowed onboard.
One time while I was there troubleshooting some engine problems, I was using a portable ARINC 429 bus analyzer - the battery died and I didn't have the right adapter to power it off AC. One of the local guys took a look at what I needed, drove off to a Radio Shack, and returned with the needed adapter - but the USAF guard protested.
'You can't take that on the aircraft until the dogs have sniffed it' - 'but I just bought it from Radio Shack, and we need it right away'.
The guard removed the adapter from the blister wrap, took a big sniff, then said 'OK, it's been sniffed, you can take it on-board' :E

artee 15th May 2017 04:55

'OK, it's been sniffed, you can take it on-board' - Lovely! :D

aterpster 15th May 2017 07:10

My recollection was from a few articles in Aviation Week at the time. Unlike you, I certainly wasn't there.

Airbubba 15th May 2017 16:34

VC-25A 28000 (82-8000) has been out shooting touch and goes at Andrews this morning using the callsign Venus 01 Heavy. They are now doing the visual 1L at ADW full stop.

Maybe another urban legend but I had heard that AF1 maintenance replaced parts at half of their normal service life i.e. if an actuator was good for 3000 landings, it would be replaced after 1500.

I've flown with several folks from the 89th over the years including a couple who flew AF1. I'm told that you are allowed one mistake and they won't fire you until you get home from the trip. ;)

sandiego89 22nd May 2017 18:34

FWIW I did note President Trump using the USAF 757 (C-32) as Air Force One for his trip to Lynchburg VA for the commencement address at Liberty University a few weeks ago. Not to be confused with "his" 757. Only time I have noticed the use of the 757/C-32 as POTUS. I have noticed him use both the VH-3 and VH-60 as Marine One (the 60 while on a Midwest visit). The 60 is easier to fold into a C-17.


Would make sense to use the 757 for the short hop from DC, but runway at Lynchburg likely also an issue for the 747 at 7,100'. I also noticed President Obama using a C-32 for his visit to Midway island. Can't fit a 747 everywhere....


Picture of him boarding the 757 to Lynchburg in a piece about current foreign trip:
International trip is an opportunity for Trump and his staff

tdracer 22nd May 2017 18:45

I've been on one of the 757 C-32s, although I don't have nearly the familiarity I have with the 747 VC-25. We did a flight test of some PW2000 change on it before delivery to the USAF (~ two decades later I have no recollection of what exactly we were testing).
At the time we jokingly referred to is as 'First Lady One' - the assumption being that it would be used to transport various high level government officials, just not the POTUS. It obviously doesn't carry all the sophisticated electronic and self defense gear that's on the 747, but for a relatively short domestic trip it would be more than adequate as AF1.

Airbubba 22nd May 2017 21:40


Originally Posted by sandiego89 (Post 9779047)
FWIW I did note President Trump using the USAF 757 (C-32) as Air Force One for his trip to Lynchburg VA for the commencement address at Liberty University a few weeks ago. Not to be confused with "his" 757. Only time I have noticed the use of the 757/C-32 as POTUS.

President Trump went to Lynchburg, Virginia on C-32A 09-0016 which has an upgraded comm package that you can see with the large SHF/Milstar radomes on the top of the fuselage. A few other C-32A's also have this additional special mission comm gear.

Four days later this aircraft was Air Force One again as the President went to Bridgeport, Connecticut for the Coast Guard Academy commencement ceremonies. This plane has in recent weeks been used as an evacuation backup for the VC-25A on domestic trips, e.g. it was parked at PDK when AF1 was at ATL.

Until fairly recently, three of the 89th's Gulfstream III's, designated C-20C's, were used for this AF1 backup mission according to published sources. Of course, the other VC-25A is normally used for backup internationally and sometimes domestically as well.


Originally Posted by sandiego89 (Post 9779047)
Picture of him boarding the 757 to Lynchburg in a piece about current foreign trip:
International trip is an opportunity for Trump and his staff

You can see one of those large radomes on top of the fuselage in the upper right corner of the photo.

For the current Middle East and Europe trip, VC-25A 28000 is AF1, 29000 is flying as SAM 45 (for the 45th President, not SAM 29000 as in earlier trips) and an E-4B is in theater as well.

LLuCCiFeR 23rd May 2017 14:06

Regardless of this mishap, IMO it's about time the USA does away with those old 747-200 pieces of junk.

I sure believe that AF1 and AF2 are meticulously maintained and polished for every trip, but for as far as range, noise, payload and technology are concerned, those things are pathetic and belong in a museum.

When will the new 747-8's be delivered? :ok:


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