PPRuNe Forums - Captain UA455 removed from flight for "emotional meltdown"

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- - Captain UA455 removed from flight for "emotional meltdown" (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/590859-captain-ua455-removed-flight-emotional-meltdown.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airbubba (Post 9675211)

Well, she was hired at a time when United was under the gun from a 1976 court decree in a case filed by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, a 'diversity' agency of the federal government.

United had committed to a 'double quota' hiring strategy to increase diversity and was sued in 1988 by the EEOC for not being compliant with the earlier ruling:

Eeoc Hits United Hiring Plan - Chicago Tribune

As a result of the 1988 suit, United accelerated diversity hiring and adjusted requirements to more aggressively promote inclusivity. Separate interview programs were set up at the old Stapleton airport offices for so called 'EEOC' class (a legal term from an earlier lawsuit) applicants.

Technical knowledge tests were abandoned since some groups did poorly due to cultural bias and lack of educational opportunities.

The skills evaluation ride was no longer given in an airliner sim because that gave people with large plane flying experience an unfair advantage. Instead a little Frasca trainer desktop box with a Cessna type panel was used for the evaluation.

Pilot hiring manager Nancy Stuke published separate sets of average experience levels of successful EEOC and non-EEOC applicants.

Inevitably, some folks with very low experience levels were hired in the late 1980's and early 1990's. Of course, we all started somewhere and after a few thousand hours, you either get it or you don't.

I believe the captain in this incident probably had at least a few hundred hours of flight time, much of it in the family's 1947 Luscombe, and a commercial license when she was hired circa 1989. Also, quite possibly her father knew UAL V.P. of Flight Ops Hart Langer from the Pan Am days which may have helped.

I would say that we can look forward to this sort of blatant discrimination ending in the next four years.

Doesn't really matter how she got into the airline it would appear that she has significant experience since and I doubt she was given a free ride through the Command process. I think what it does highlight is that professionals from all walks of life and yes even the steely eyed missile persons in the flight deck are under significant stress from things such as personal matters, changes in corporate culture, the drive to squeeze as much "productivity" out of flight crew and uncertainty about retirement incomes. She has made a decision that will impact on the rest of her working life. Don't be too quick to judge because in this day and age none of us know where our particular breaking point is.

Lookleft: Absolutely.

But you'd think in this modern world of 'no blame' cultures, work-life balance and equal opportunities that people would come nowhere near their breaking point.

Either the world of work has gone way past the potential for individuals to break down without the mitigation of workplace practices, and/or life in general is simply becoming too complicated and emotionally demanding for many to cope?

I've had two demanding careers, three wives and was emotionally abused as a child. A psychiatrist I met by chance shortly after my last divorce told me after hearing my tale that I was unlikely to survive more than 5 years in his opinion - the emotional 'baggage' would be unbearable.

I drove to Beachy Head the next day and stood right on the edge - and thought 'no' I never would.

There have been ups and downs and some anger and regret, but 11 years later I'm still here and know I never would act irrationally or harm myself or others in any way.

I still wonder if one day, when I get older and my 'walls' are down, I will just simply collapse in a heap under the weight pent up emotions?

Quote:

What do you want the companies to do? Have an annual psych eval for pilots?

I'm not an FAA qualified physician, but I was a Captain for a large International U.S. carrier and, as part of that job I had to get a physical every 6 months. As explained to me by several different physicians, part of that exam included a psych evaluation. One of our pilots was flagged by this process and had to undergo further evaluation by the company doctor. He was eventually cleared and I don't remember the exact circumstances, but there is indeed a procedure in place, or at least there used to be. I'm retired now.

Quote:

......as part of that job I had to get a physical every 6 months.

which included an ECG, the last of which after 50 years - I maintained a licence into retirement - picked up the need for a couple of arterial stents, so .... if all those ECG's were essential, why don't I need them now ? Realised that I hadn't had an ECG for 7 years so got my local Dr. to give me one anyway. Seems alright.

I do wonder how many drivers hurtling towards me at a closing speed of 200 kph have ever even seen a doctor ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mozella (Post 9676132)

As explained to me by several different physicians, part of that exam included a psych evaluation. One of our pilots was flagged by this process and had to undergo further evaluation by the company doctor. He was eventually cleared and I don't remember the exact circumstances, but there is indeed a procedure in place, or at least there used to be. I'm retired now.

From the 'just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to to get your medical' department, here is some guidance from the FAA Aviation Examiner handbook:

Quote:

Valuable information can be derived from the casual conversation that occurs during the physical examination. Some of this conversation will reveal information about the family, the job, and special interests. Even some personal troubles may be revealed at this time. The Examiner's questions should not be stilted or follow a regular pattern; instead, they should be a natural extension of the Examiner's curiosity about the person being examined. Information about the motivation for medical certification and interest in flying may be revealing. A formal Mental Status Examination is unnecessary.

For example, it is not necessary to ask about time, place, or person to discover whether the applicant is oriented. Information about the flow of associations, mood, and memory, is generally available from the usual interactions during the examination. Indication of cognitive problems may become apparent during the examination. Such problems with concentration, attention, or confusion during the examination or slower, vague responses should be noted and may be cause for deferral.

The Examiner should make observations about the following specific elements and should note on the form any gross or notable deviations from normal:

Appearance (abnormal if dirty, disheveled, odoriferous, or unkempt);
Behavior (abnormal if uncooperative, bizarre, or inexplicable);
Mood (abnormal if excessively angry, sad, euphoric, or labile);
Communication (abnormal if incomprehensible, does not answer questions directly);
Memory (abnormal if unable to recall recent events); and
Cognition (abnormal if unable to engage in abstract thought, or if delusional or hallucinating).

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ech/item47/et/

A colleague who is big into HIMS drug/alcohol addiction work told me a couple of years ago that the head Department of Transportation doctor was pushing for formal psych exams for pilots but that the FAA Aeromed folks in OKC were not in favor at that time.

Years ago airlines used personality tests like the MMPI to screen applicants but some of that stuff fell out of fashion for a while due to lawsuits like the ones mentioned above claiming cultural bias in hiring decisions.

I understand applicants at some places now take an online Hogan's Goat (I failed ;)) test for screening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammedStab (Post 9675254)

I would say that we can look forward to this sort of blatant discrimination ending in the next four years.

I doubt that, JS. That whole issue is way too politically poisonous, regardless of who's at the helm.

True, but the judges interpret the constitution regardless of poison. At least the new ones will be.

And I believe that there is a pending case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpannerInTheWerks (Post 9674948)

Poor thing.

Divorce isn't that devastating - and certainly not something a SANE pilot should get into meltdown over.

If she can't take the strain she should be nowhere near a commercial aircraft - and that's for her to determine as we all have to day-to-day.

I visit to a shrink is definitely required, rest, and maybe a rethink of her career options.

I wonder if it might be a good idea for aviation professionals to have a candid conversation with their partners about what this business does to relationships. Seems to me at least one divorce per career should almost be an expectation, so why not talk about this kind of thing honestly? I don't think ignoring things makes them go away, which is why my wife and I have discussed the possibility that we may not be "until death do us part". It's not because we don't want it to be forever, but because life has a way of throwing curve balls, so perhaps they would be less devastating if there was some honest communication previously.

I could be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JammedStab (Post 9676292)

True, but the judges interpret the constitution regardless of poison. At least the new ones will be.

And I believe that there is a pending case.

We'll see, JS, we'll see. Even if changes do come about, I doubt they will touch aviation first. There are industries where this sort of thing is MUCH more of a factor.

I don't much care about the underlying cause(s) of this melt down. What I DO care about is getting my butt OFF that airplane, meaning NOW!

This was posted elsewhere earlier today:

Former Red Arrow pilot and war hero Peter Collins killed himself over retirement worries | Bristol Post

Let's leave the yelling about gender, race, politics, unions etc out of this - it goes to show that at any point in our lives any of us, regardless of background or gender may need peer intervention, hand holding etc, and also just maybe we all need to listen a little harder to what is being said by the individual on the other seat.....

Wiggy, that's quite a depressing and tragic story. However, given that the deceased had tried to take his own life two weeks earlier and yet the family had "no indication of what was to come," it certainly seems that someone wasn't listening very well. In the hindsight view, I would think at least some of those he left behind have a profound feeling of guilt. Sad all the way around.

Back on track, your point about gender, race, etc. is well taken.

wiggy, Very well said. Very many people need help at some time in their lives.

There is a concept, externalizers vs internalizers. This is predominantly applied in PTSD. A few years ago my wife tried to end our relationship. I did as she asked, like always.Went as she requested. Her father spoke to me....said to go home, she had told him "daddy he will sit at my grave and kill himself the night I'm buried." A week later I did as she predicted, he was fast enough that I merely lost an eyebrow. Haven't worked since - am not 100% locked on to make life & death decisions over anyone else. My point is merely we all can be broken somehow, it's just a matter of degrees. Having 1st hand experience hope none of you EVER know the feeling. Sincerely,

Truly sorry to hear that, medic. I guess I'm either more egotistical or more jaded (maybe both). If she ever moves on, so will I.