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-   -   Jet 737 aborts takeoff, leaves runway - Goa (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/588785-jet-737-aborts-takeoff-leaves-runway-goa.html)

ManaAdaSystem 27th Dec 2016 16:24

Off you go. To the side. A few metres down the runway.
I have trained this, and I have tried it in real life. My Effoh who was in the habit of not setting 40%, but rather just push the throttles up (that is the way we used to do it on the .... fill in the blanks) did exactly that, and hit TOGA without checking anything. The left engine worked as it should, the right was not. Not an engine failure, just slow.
The nose was pushed about 2 metres to the side before I managed to close the throttles. Maybe we managed to move 10 metres down the runway.

Playing glider in the sim is a different situation to doing it in real life, in darkness and without visual contact with anything.

172_driver 27th Dec 2016 17:12


Ever tried an engine failure just as max thrust is reached? At low speed? Hardly the most unlikely time for an engine failure, is it?
One of the first things practiced in Multi-Engine school. The swing is just as bad, i.e. uncontrollable, in a Seneca as it is in 737. Seems like modern aviators have forgotten the basics, if this happens to be the case of asymmetric spool up. As an instructor I always sat with my left hand on the mixture control < 1000 ft with new schoolers. They were good, it was just that I wanted to immediately get control of the yaw if they didn't respond properly to the failure.

lomapaseo 27th Dec 2016 17:50


We are all trained to recognise engine failures during takeoff at various speeds.
True but

Your training presumes a lack of thrust on one engine at speed (rudder skill) and not a significant overthrust on one engine below rudder effectiveness.

And the confusion is compounded with any reversers deployed trying to figure out what end is pushing or pulling too much.

Most pilots simply end up off the side of the runway while they are deciding (data based)

AtomKraft 27th Dec 2016 17:52

172 Driver.

No. It's not.

I've got over 12000 hours and only seen it on one of my type conversions, and that only briefly

A4 27th Dec 2016 18:12

Does this runway require a backtrack and 180 degree turn? How many times have I seen guys spool up the outboard engine to assist the turn (that's fine)....close the levers as they line up and then stand them up to 50% when cleared for T/O....but the spooling down engine hasn't fully idled and so it spools up faster than the other.......if you don't check for both stable at 50%.....you're going to get a big yaw. Does this runway require TOGA?

On the face of it this seems like simply not checking for BOTH stable before applying required take off thrust.

oxide 27th Dec 2016 18:25

Yup, requires backtrack. I wouldn't imagine the 73 would need the assistance of the outboard to make the turn though. I'm from Goa and I can't remember the last time differential thrust was used to assist and can honestly say I've never had any of them go to TO thrust straight from the turn.

Having said that, this could very well be the case here.

framer 27th Dec 2016 19:51


I think you need to reel you wild imagination in
Ok, wild imagination reeled in.
I was responding to

Initial reports saying starboard engine reversor deployed during T/O roll
If that happened, I stick with my original statement. I don't believe that this is what happened though. I have seen many experienced pilots depart the runway in the sim if an engine is failed at about 25 kts, and it happens in real life when one engine spools up quicker than the other. When a 737 aircraft departed runway 16R in YSSY some years ago and ended up on 07, the crew thought they had a nose wheel problem. The problem was that the right engine came up slower than the left. The nose wheel simply scrubbed along the Tarmac when NWS was used.
Like someone above said, the chances of having a reverser deployed at the start of the takeoff roll are remote.

172_driver 27th Dec 2016 20:09


172 Driver.

No. It's not.

I've got over 12000 hours and only seen it on one of my type conversions, and that only briefly
I am not going to speak for you of course, but are you sure you never practiced the scenario in multi-engine twin prop (be it a Seneca, Duchess or Baron) all those years ago getting your Multi-Eninge rating?

I have done engine runaway during recurrent training in a 737, but guess that is something the operator has chosen to put in the program.

gearpins 27th Dec 2016 22:46

To the B737 experts,
Can a fault induce auto deployment of the reversers while the thrust levers are out of idle posn...?

noflynomore 27th Dec 2016 23:14

I well remember the night of V1 cut after V1 cut in the 737 sim when the instructor asked us, "got the hang of it then?" and on receiving our cocky assurances set us up one last exercise.

The beefer chopped one engine as soon as they had reached t/o N1 at perhaps 40Kts. The resulting excursion was astonishing. As was the following one. It took IMMEDIATE and EXTREME control inputs to control the swing.
By FAR the hardest EFATO drill on the 737 (and A320) is the low-speed failure with full power when no rudder authority is available to help keeping it straight. Partly because we tend to practice it less I suppose, after all, a low speed asymmetric event can't be a big deal, can it? Hell no!

The excursion of this event looks to me as if a low speed full power failure was not properly contained.

Metro man 27th Dec 2016 23:28

Does the CFM engine have a "keep out" band like the IAE ? If the thrust levers were splayed to assist the turn and advanced towards take off thrust while still in this position, would the FADEC rapidly accelerate the leading engine through the keep out range whilst the other engine lagged behind ?

The surprise factor would be considerable but even so they still went a long way off the pavement.

tdracer 28th Dec 2016 01:36

No keep out zone on the CFM (that's pretty much a Rolls exclusive due to fan flutter issues).
While an uncommanded reverser deployment is very remote, it is somewhat more likely on the ground than it is in flight due to the air/ground logic.

Sqwak7700 28th Dec 2016 03:26


Squawk7700

that scenario happened to a 738 at a company related to mine. Departed the intended runway but luckily ended up on the crossing strip. Highly likely in this scenario, imo.
Same here, Goat, but on 747s. Luckily, the pilots reacted fast enough and rejected the TOs before they turned into an offroading adventure.

Has become a serious enough threat that our FDAP now tracks this. On our airplanes it is assuring you have approximately 1.1 EPR or 45% N1, depending on model, before pressing TOGA.

India Charlie 28th Dec 2016 06:34

Forgive my ignorance here, if any...

I've seen many backtrack 180 take off's on the 737 (and 320) and as far as I can remember, the turn itself involves both engines with N1 at about 40% to accomplish the turn. I have never seen differential thrust being used on the 737 to assist a 180. This means, both engines are already symmetrically spooled and once the a/c is lined up and the PF advances the throttle levers (TOGA switch), both levers move forward in unison to T/O thrust with A/T armed, assisted by the FADEC.

I have not seen engines set to idle N1 at intersection T/Os or before T/O after completing the 180, unless T/O clearance has not been obtained or the crew is waiting for another a/c to clear the runway, a frequent scenario at Goa.

Could it be that FADEC was malfunctioning?

Mora34 28th Dec 2016 18:56

Stop judging: Pilot of Jet Airways Goa runway crash writes a strong letter
 
Stop judging: Pilot of Jet Airways Goa runway crash writes a strong letter

737er 28th Dec 2016 19:30

Excellent. Good on him! Wish he had added to the media to stop painting commercial aviation as unsafe and making the public fearful, when in fact it's a safety record to be damn proud of. And yes, contrary to popular diatribe, pilots actually fly airliners.

Herod 28th Dec 2016 19:35

That letter should be on every editor's and sub-editor's wall and perhaps at the beginning of every accident/incident thread on Pprune.

core_dump 28th Dec 2016 20:01


Originally Posted by Mora34 (Post 9623051)
Stop judging: Pilot of Jet Airways Goa runway crash writes a strong letter

Just for the sake of clarity... The above-linked opinion piece was written by some random guy who had nothing to do with the incident. As for the misleading headline that appears on that site, I'm sure he had no part of it.

Hotel Tango 28th Dec 2016 20:56

The way it is worded I don't believe for one moment that it's written by the pilot involved.

India Charlie 29th Dec 2016 05:47

I don't think the crew would be allowed to write anything about the incident, even a sentimental piece like this, before the full enquiry was concluded. An anonymous guy from the same company perhaps.


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