Originally Posted by pattern_is_full
(Post 10474592)
Fortunately, pilots (some at least) are getting better tools to hold up their end (EGPWS, 3D cockpit maps, etc.). It may be more a question of better arranging when and how a PIC can depart from an ATC clearance that has them heading for terrain, and training on how important it is to do that, and not let "ATC Authority Gradient" put one at risk. "Unable maintain 6000, terrain - climbing to 8000 right now! Get 'em out of my way!"
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Originally Posted by Right Way Up
(Post 9615850)
US ATC are not obligated to check readbacks and challenge.
EVA obviously had no SA as exhibited that they happily turned towards terrain with no obvious issue. The controller once it was obvious that EVA was a rogue should have been very clear in her instruction and guided EVA away from trouble. "turn Southbound" was unbelievably vague in this case. |
Originally Posted by yarpos
(Post 10479072)
Sounds more like freeway instruction on a GPS.
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Originally Posted by yarpos
(Post 10479072)
Sounds more like freeway instruction on a GPS.
To provide a direction or suggested headings to VFR aircraft as a method for radar identification or as an advisory aid to navigation.PHRASEOLOGY−(Identification), PROCEED (direction)−BOUND, (other instructions or information as necessary) page 119 https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf Also - In this case, to disambiguate an instruction to a non-english native speaker it wasn't such a bad idea ? |
Many years ago during class room stuff instructor cited an accident out of LAX where a crew were under radar and given a vector to the west, where upon radar forgot about them and they crashed in the mountains, think it was a GA type. The lesson he was imparting to we newbies was even if you're under radar keep a plot by whatever means (long before GPS) as to your location and speak up when in doubt.
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A USAF C-135 (707) took off North from El Toro airbase in SoCo for Hickam AB Hawaii and did not turn left towards the sea and went into the mountains soon after take off
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Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10479748)
Many years ago during class room stuff instructor cited an accident out of LAX where a crew were under radar and given a vector to the west, where upon radar forgot about them and they crashed in the mountains, think it was a GA type. The lesson he was imparting to we newbies was even if you're under radar keep a plot by whatever means (long before GPS) as to your location and speak up when in doubt.
There was a Cessna 182 being vectored into Burbank, a shift change, and the ATC forgot about him. Crashed several minutes later into the San Gabriel Mountains. Total lack of situational awareness by the CFI-I. |
Originally Posted by rog747
(Post 10480136)
A USAF C-135 (707) took off North from El Toro airbase in SoCo for Hickam AB Hawaii and did not turn left towards the sea and went into the mountains soon after take off
That tragic accident was one of the arguments against converting El Toro into a "major international airport." |
Originally Posted by aterpster
(Post 10480310)
El Toro was not designed to be a jet transport airbase. I always felt that crew got sucked in. Had they had competent support, they would have departed to the south.
That tragic accident was one of the arguments against converting El Toro into a "major international airport." Arriving or departing into LAX (coming in from the UK) we always know we usually land into the sunset (often amazing) and take off straight out over the sea and then turn back. Common SA kicks in even as a pax. Not sure iirc if I have ever taken off the other way since 1982 I recall flying at night to Palm Springs a few times on a small commuter turboprop (yuk) and note their departure profile and the staged climb to get over the mountains before following down the valley to PS |
Nothing but ocean west of LAX |
Originally Posted by White Knight
(Post 9618117)
in much the same way I sometimes hear 'the good 'ole boys' not understanding ATC outside of their US home grounds:eek: Not often, but it happens...
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I said I was pretty sure we were to turn right and start holding. Sometimes things are non-standard, in many places... I wonder if someone coming off the space shuttle would fly an eliptical pattern. |
Originally Posted by atpcliff
(Post 10481063)
I recently heard (from a non-US approach control), out of the blue, "callsign Right One Orbit!". My FO flying didn't hear/understand the radio call. I hit heading select and rotated the heading bug about 180 degrees. We started turning, and my FO asked me what was happening. I told him ATC just told us to do fly "Right One Orbit". He said he didn't know what that meant. I said I was pretty sure we were to turn right and start holding. Sometimes things are non-standard, in many places...
Cheers, Grog |
Originally Posted by capngrog
(Post 10481574)
"Pretty sure" has the potential to get any of us into a lot of trouble. Did you ask for clarification of the instruction " ... Right One Orbit"? What was the approach controller's response to your read back?
Cheers, Grog |
Originally Posted by rog747
(Post 10480493)
Arriving or departing into LAX (coming in from the UK) we always know we usually land into the sunset (often amazing) and take off straight out over the sea and then turn back.
Common SA kicks in even as a pax. Not sure iirc if I have ever taken off the other way since 1982 |
Originally Posted by WHBM
(Post 10482106)
Easterlies at LAX are more common than you might believe. Next time, as your landing slows, just look at all the tyre marks on the runways from easterly landings https://www.google.com/maps/place/LA...!4d-118.404025 .
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Originally Posted by capngrog
(Post 10481574)
"Pretty sure" has the potential to get any of us into a lot of trouble. Did you ask for clarification of the instruction " ... Right One Orbit"? What was the approach controller's response to your read back?
Cheers, Grog |
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