Adriaan at Colombia Reports, Colombia News | Colombia Reports, is working on it now.

The female crew who survived has been quoted as saying that the lights inside the aircraft began to turn off gradually in the 50 seconds before impact.

The male crew who survived has said he remained in the fetal position after gathering bags to place in between his legs.

What's the nav kit on this a/c? What works from the battery? No fuel = no Gens or APU. 19000' and not on radar? Hm?

Video from helicopter showing a bit more detail of location of debris.
Filmagem de helicóptero mostra que avião da Chape colidiu durante queda

The more I read about this incident....the less it becomes a case of "Holes in the cheese" - more a case of one big hole of failiures.

1. The Range / Fuel issue. Seems a case of "Got away with it twice, but not thrice" - Ultimately, previous attempts did not involve holding.

2. Why the delay in announcing a fuel starvation issue? Why not announce an emergency immediately - Those crucial minutes could of changed everything?

3. Why the urge to "Get down" and have the gear down, causing drag? Obviously we don't have an accurate timeline...but the "gear down" seems to be early. I would of thought in a fuel starved situation this would be the least of your concerns - in fact, unless approaching an airfield, would gear up not have been preferred for a terrain landing? Also - at the height they were - surely Altitude buys you time to calculate and plan. Once it's gone, you aren't getting it back.

Also - someone familiar on type. Surely this issue presented itself over a period of time - so alarm bells should have been ringing. I cannot imagine all 4 engines having a simultanious flame out? So is there actually a possibility that the crew, knowing they were marginal, ignored the fact one (Some) of the engines were shutdown?

It reads like the worst chain of events in aviation I have seen in a long time. Not only that, it seems that fate gave them multiple bites at the cherry to "Save" the situation and at each and every step, the obvious was not done.

Avianca 9256 was holding initially at 21.000 ft then descended to 19.000ft, and the RJ85 was already above them.

From what I understood from the Avianca pilot, ATC lost radar contact after they had left their holding position.

@RiSq
Re your item 2
read post #158 for the most probable explanation of why he did not want to declare an emergency and thereby attract unwanted official interest in the goings on.

@Dsc810 - I cannot fathom that, I really cannot - but it basically confirms my other belief - there were mutliple points to turn this situation around. It's absolutely disgusting that, even with the facts in front of him - no fuel, Emergency....he neglected to inform ATC, which ultimately, would of prioritised them. I'd face the consequences of my abysmal actions rather than risk the lives of my PAX - actually, I wouldn't have to as I would not put anyones life at risk to begin with, if I were a Professional Pilot.

I'm not sure if it was Arrogance or stupidity (We will hopefully find out) - but ultimately, it killed (nearly) all of them.

I would normally refrain from such comments, but this looks like it literally is as simple as it first appears. God almighty, I hope I am wrong as ultimately, it makes it more redeemable.

Question :
When the ATCO called them at 9.000 ft 8 miles out, would this Alt be AGL or MSL?

RiSq:
Sadly some people rather die than admit to a mistake.

Ian w/liveryman: the pic didnt choose to hold, he was instructed to by atc. the fact that he followed the instruction suggests to me that he was unaware of any problem other than electrical, at that time.

I hope should this be a fuel issue that it brings "food for thought" to those Airlines that quite legally use the other runway at an airfield as the diversion. (not in this case) A lot of the lessons learnt in the past have now been forgotten. "oh that won't happen" often quoted, but as the legal limits become tighter, the illegal ones become very tight.

Audio (in spanish)
"Falha total": áudio mostra piloto do avião da Chape insistindo para pousar

Interesting stories about LAMIA
 

Not immediately relevant to this accident per se but I came across this article during my online wanderings ...... https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin...amia-airlines/

No wonder LMI 2933 didn't land at Cobija for fuel: the airport has no lighting.

Normal procedures for landing significantly below minimum fuel in this part of the world is that the aircraft would be impounded pending an investigation, the flight deck crew would be grounded for the duration, if not actually imprisoned, and the company operating certificate would be temporarily suspended. The most likely outcome after a few months would be a massive fine.

Why might that be relevant? Lamia operated a single aircraft, the captain was also the owner of the company, and the company was short of funds and looking for investors. Not a good situation at all.

There have been a number of folks asking why a number of clubs and national teams used this operator. Quite simply they were "recommended" by Conmebol, the South American federation.

MSL of course. I guess ( only guess at this stage) and she lost him because of terrain filters on the radar.
Medelin MDE elevation is 7000 ft, so 9000ft 8 miles out , with no power even on flat ground, no chances anyway. ( there are 10.000ft peaks in the area. )

Edit : Just listened to the R/T posted,
the last transmission was :" 9 mil pés, senhorita. Vectores,, vectores." ( 9000ft Miss, Vectors, vectors ..) so the pilot gave the Alt , not the controller it was apparently not visible on the Secondary radar.

He hadn't reported any problem up to that point, the electrical failure came after he started an unauthorized descent, and after he told ATC about his fuel situation, according to the more reliable news sources here.

The problem is that the intended airport may close for reasons other than weather. Security situations, accidents, fires, ATC or NAV/COM issues, natural disasters, etc.

So it's a good idea to always have enough fuel to reach an alternate airport, plus reserves, even if not required by regulations.

From the helicopter video footage, it looks like it crashed right next to the Rionegro VOR. Could he of been trying to (steeply) descend to that VOR, thinking it was at the end of the runway (KAL801)?

ATC not having the plane on radar, apparently not able to provide vectors ... other planes nearby (enough to see its lights passing) (believe someone mentioned they had them on TCAS)... ?

It appears to have escalated in 2 minutes ....

But, has there been any mention of ATC asking other pilots for assistance ?

Now reading that the wreckage is very close to the localizer, as if he flew straight at that.
Possible?
Would explain steep descent and gear down....?

@meekmok ... too early to answer your question when you look at the available photos. All (except one) photos have been taken from one side of the ridge. Would be necessary to have photos from the other side of the ridge too. These might help to explain what appear to be multiple deep drag marks. I got the impression that you could only explain that when for instance the MLG had been down and the plane came from the other side. Gear down would be surprising based on the distance they had to go. You dont put your gear down early if you are running out of fuel.

An aerial view of the whole site and more photos from the other side of the ridge might explain more.

Addition - #170 of dmba has an good video of a helicopter circling the area, show a wing on top of the high ridge, the earlier seen wreckage below and the VOR on top of the table top mountain opposite. Pity the video is not shown close up.

"Falla eléctrica total, ni combustible" - "Total electrical failure, and (literally "nor") fuel..."

From the Spanish audio in the Portuguese newspaper link.

I note that Is it too much of a leap to guess that a payment envelope to someone there accompanied this recommendation? That would be consistent with FIFA style behavior, and also consistent with the article about LAMIA from the last page. (While I do take Ms Martin's article with a grain of salt, "having connections" is how a lot of business gets done all over the world). Which regulatory body would have oversight over this air charter company? The Venezuelan or Bolivian? Country of registry is Venezuela.


While I'd expect the Colombians to initiate the Accident Investigation, and I'd expect Venezuelan and Brazillian investigators to have an interest, would Bolivian authorities necessarily be involved or would they not necessarily be?

Yeah, I don't think I would want to put all my eggs in one basket by having my only "diversion" be a different runway. At the very least, I'd want to know that there was somewhere else I could reach in a "worst case" scenario, even if that was somewhere that would normally be off-limits. (Military base, slightly under limits runway length, etc.)

Not having ever flown this aircraft type, and it being the terminal phase, might the owner/pilot perhaps have secured two engines during holding (or in the descent into the terminal phase) to save those last few drops of gas since he must have known fuel was getting tight? (No idea how this aircraft does with just two engines, asking out of sheer ignorance). None of the foregoing condones improper fuel planning/reserve requirements ... I am sort of wondering how they got away with this kind of marginal fuel issue on previous flights for the same route?




What informs the question is some ancient "as a last resort" ideas to "single up" a dual engine helicopter at sea when in a fuel emergency ...

The investigation will no doubt reveal when the batteries were last serviced or replaced for this aircraft. You would expect essential or emergency buss power to be maintained for a decent interval after all-engine flameout... and not for the transponder, navaids to 'go dark' so quickly.

This is claimed to be ATC audio leading up to the mishap as acquired by Radio W, a Colombian station, possibly the same audio posted earlier by dbma with a little background music:

Los audios de la torre de control previo al accidente del avión del Chapecoense | 20161130

Sounds like the Avianca holding below was indeed AV9356, not AV9256.

The Wikipedia article has this placemark, the drug lord style helipad with guard towers, or whatever it is [from the lat long, it's apparently the RNG VOR - Airbubba], is indeed in some of the videos of the accident scene:

https://goo.gl/maps/RgPzFzNYzR42

It would make a little more sense if it was "no fuel" first followed by "total electrical failure".

However the exception must be Ansett VH-JJP, Karrath - Perth night flight incident of March 1992 where all four engines rolled back and electrical power was lost comes to mind.

Nevertheless it is almost inconceivable that the aircraft could have been dispatched without sufficient fuel reserves.

At 1:16 of Airbubba's link above, you can can clearly hear "Estamos en falla eléctrica total, falla total, y (or 'ni') combustible."

"We are in total electrical failure, total failure, and fuel."

Not much of a leap at all, it would be pretty much standard practice for sports confederations around here.

twincommander, good point about the batteries. An old friend worked on the 146 for a time and mentioned that it had a hefty Nickel Cadmium pack, unsurprisingly, given one of its original rough field, no cart roles. The crash aircraft had been in storage for 3? years. One thing that NiCads *hate* is not being used regularly and they lose capacity permanently. For sure it would have deteriorated.

I hear "sin combustível".

He's saying they have no fuel.

What he said was "Señorita Lamia 933 está en falla total, falla eléctrica total, sin combustible."

"Miss, Lamia 933 is in total failure, total electrical failure, without fuel"

So let's consider a situation where you plan to destination with marginal weather and plan an alternate that is CAVOK.

You get to destination, weather is below limits so you hold until reaching your diversion fuel and divert to your single runway CAVOK alternate arriving with final reserve fuel. However, this now closes for reasons other than weather... what is the difference in that and arriving at a 2 runway airport with final reserve plus a bit in hand (providing the weather at destination is well above limits as stated in my previous post)?

Gracias Pato. Interesting that he was so courteous up to the end. Whispers of Avianca 52?

We can only imagine how this aircraft was maintained, and whether the NiCads had received their periodic deep discharge/re-charge. Still strange that a conservatively-designed British aircraft would have a black instrument panel so soon after generator power loss.

I agree with your comment intellectually. I believe however, that the likelihood of an unfavourable chain of events at two completely disconnected locations is lower than at two parallel runways.

The radio was working, ergo the battery was working.
Failure sequence (excluding the feed tanks LO and numerous shutdown warnings) would quite possibly be AC1/2 and no APU start available, possible loss of SBYGEN resulting EMDC/AC with all of those implications. Not a good place to be.