Tower: "SBA maintain runway heading, climb to 4000 ft, cleared for takeoff"
SBA read back and commenced opening throttles Unknown: "foxtrot" SBA: "confirm we are cleared for takeoff" Tower: Negative, hold your position Turned out our clearance was cancelled and TFF (an F27) was cleared for takeoff opposite direction runway. Due to a large hump in the runway, limited vis from either end. The "foxtrot' was the last letter of TFF acknowledging takeoff clearance. We did not copy that because of reading back SBA (DC3) clearance. In 1943, my father was bumped from a DC3 observation flight and the aircraft collided with another with no survivors. In 1970 I was again lucky (and vigilant) at the same place - the old Port Moresby airport. Who out there in pprune land delay takeoff for a single "foxtrot"? |
I was taught to always look, never assume that crossing runway/taxiway is clear.
I am always amazed, in the pedestrian world, to watch people waiting for the green light at the crossing and then step of the safety of the pavement into the danger area, where sharks lie in wait for the unwary, without looking. The green says you are cleared to cross, but is it safe? Surely they know of red-light jumpers. It sounds so easy to say, but observation of the real world suggests some guys just don't do it. |
Originally Posted by RAT 5
(Post 9543547)
And no-one has brought up the question of "why didn't they extend the flaps a little more?"
Hence why I spend about 10 minutes a month browsing this site as opposed to hours each week, but that's a discussion for another day... |
Originally Posted by reverserunlocked
(Post 9544766)
I did wonder if the timely application of a further stage of flaps might get you in the air quicker
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I find the thread title is problematic.
Hongqiao has nothing to with what happened in '77 at Los Rodeos except for an apparent ground conflict situation where ATC seemingly plays a role. In '77 two aircraft followed each other in fog on the same runway after being imprisoned at Tenerife for hours. A bit different compared to this case.. |
@readywhenreaching - it was almost a repeat of Tenerife insofar as there were two fully laden passenger aircraft which could so very easily have collided on a runway. Death toll here would likely have been very high. Fortunately, in this case, there was no collision. That last hole in the cheese didn't line up. A thread title is a bit like a newspaper headline, it's there to grab the attention of the reader.
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You did of course note my 'smiley' that accompanied my flap comment. It was attached to the 'monday quarter-backing' comment of another poster. I do not expect every a/c to have an ace of the base sky god of the right stuff to be upfront.
They did a darned good job with what they had. |
ace of the base sky god of the right stuff |
Rented clapped out C152, relying on the ceiling mounted speaker because no headset, three hour flight into Ann Arbor Michigan. Very tired. Permission to land, so did so, and taxied back to cross the end of the runway to fuel up and park. Brain dead by this time, I didn't hear/or understand that ATC had told me to hold short for a landing aircraft. However always have a good lookout, I saw the approaching aircraft and judged plenty of time to scoot across and get out of its way.
At the fuel depot I was informed that ATC wanted a word.... I apologised, told them I didn't have a headset and hadn't absorbed the hold short instruction, but that I had a jolly good lookout before crossing...and after a strict telling off was forgiven and decided hence to always fly with a headset. But I still always have a jolly good lookout no matter what ATC tells me, you never know, do you? |
Originally Posted by bradandwhitney
(Post 9543227)
Anyone else on here also under the impression that PVG ATC is even more "interesting" than typical chinese RT? Especially early morning when TWR still does CLR and GND while traffic is picking up continuously.
I remember a little language incident (wrong taxi clearance) whereafter a British accent came on the air saying something along the lines of "...you need to use proper english or someone will be seriously f...ed" (he did drop the f-bomb! - rightfully so it seems). Taking off from Malé, Maldives, circa 100kn, Luton van drove across in front of us. I observed that, if it maintained heading and speed, it would be well clear and continued t/o. It did and we missed. Subsequent rethink suggested that, had it, for some reason, stopped on the runway, an instant abort would have meant we'd have hit it less hard. My finding at the cerebral Board of Inquiry was that I should have rejected. On another occasion I was considering rotating early due Alpha Jet entering runway with intention of taking off towards us. (He noticed and continued turn and cleared r/w) |
Originally Posted by Derfred
(Post 9544349)
No, the A330 was cleared to cross. So it would have crossed the stop bar, automatically.
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China Eastern to Reward Captain for Preventing Collision at Airport
People's Daily Online | Oct. 17, 2016 China Eastern Airlines has announced plans to offer a reward to the captain whose quick thinking recently helped to prevent a collision between two planes at a Shanghai airport. The captain, He Chao, was credited by China's Civil Aviation Administration with "making a great contribution with his precise and correct decision at a critical moment," Nanjing Daily reported. The critical moment came on Oct. 11 when He's Airbus A320 jet, carrying 147 passengers, was preparing to take off from the Shanghai-Hongqiao International Airport. ... China's Civil Aviation Administration suggested that the control center be held accountable, in addition to the crew members of the A330 who failed to maintain proper communication with the controller, China Radio International reported. The airline (sic), however, has yet to punish controllers, Nanjing Daily reported. |
Bedder believeit. Thanks for the link, an absolutely fascinating read. Most interesting to see how use of CVR has progressed but the dogged investigators unearthed great information with voice matching. The report seems scrupulous in setting out the background of the operators and crews, then the sequence.
The collective mis-hearing of the key tx from the tower must be talked about to this day! I note that the SYD tower did not record internal discussions between controllers, only the transmissions. Is this something that has changed around the world? |
Is it just me or does it feel like the number number of incidents where the "wrong breaker" was pulled, thus rendering the CVR useless is greater than one would statistically expect...
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where the "wrong breaker" was pulled The Sydney report makes fascinating reading about an earlier era. Publishing the all of the crews' names. Flying with a inop FDR. Not reading back ATC instructions. |
i was in atl in line for to in a moderate rain event (haha) when two delta dc 8's were on the same runway, one taking off, one landing, both pretty much in the same aspect, with their noses in the air. it was pretty erie.
then once in lauderdale we were holding in position for to when a cessna 150 landed over the top of us. and thats all im going to share about similar events from my 34 year career. |
Whilst certainly advocating a constant and vigilant look out policy anyone who's ever operated out of Boston, JFK, Newark etc... especially at night, will know that it is commonplace to have an aircraft lined up on the departure runway as you cross.
The trick is to get yourself and your mucker to watch like a hawk to see if the bu**er is moving or not!!! A very lucky bunch all told! |
Non pilot here with a question. From the Av Herald article link in the original post:
"the A320 crew had not yet been on frequency and therefore had not heard the crossing clearance. There is a frequency switch somewhere between taxiing and takeoff clearance? Really? Or is this just bad reporting? |
@EEngr: you will typically find a Ground control frequency at an airport that is a dedicated frequency to control ground movement. You will also have a tower frequency that governs take off and landing.
After you land, your switch to ground when directed by tower. (In my experience, usually "when clear of the active" which with multiple runway airports means you have to pay attention to what runway(s) are or are not active.) The point of the different discrete frequencies is to avoid conflicting or confusing instructions for aircraft taking off and landing, versus those moving to and from the runway environment. |
It seems to me that we have two conflicting reports here now:
The Herald says: A China Eastern Airbus A330-300, registration B-6506 performing flight MU-5106 from Beijing to Shanghai Hongqiao (China) with 266 passengers, had landed on Hongqiao's runway 36R and was taxiing to the terminal needing to cross runway 36L. The aircraft, that had been previously cleared to cross runway 36L, was instructed to stop and hold short of runway 36L but did not react to the stop instruction. All of a sudden, He's aircraft encountered another Airbus A330 cutting across its path. The two planes, both owned by China Eastern Airlines, were found to have been simultaneously cleared for take-off by air traffic control. The near-collision occurred as He sped up to take off, narrowly evading a head-on crash. Doesn't that just sound absolutely ridiculous? I would rather trust the Herald than some news paper. I am just dying to know how a CVR recording from a modern plane that has just landed get over written. For me, most runways I land on are the gate and parking. Has it ever taken any of you 30 minutes (assuming this was a 30 minutes CVR) to reach your gate and shut the aircraft down? It just sounds suspicious to me that the whole recording was over written. |
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