Originally Posted by Ozlander1
(Post 9302403)
Seems like they were moved to be the same as the King Airs or something.
Long time ago and I wasn't directly involved. Even that doesn't save a dozy/tired/distracted pilot. After a three-hour trip in constant turbulence I arrived at Lydd with two very distressed children in the back. After two goarounds due to slower circuit traffic I asked ATC for priority. Being distracted by more howls and vomiting I failed to lower the gear until an alert controller warned me halfway down finals. Still grateful for that warning, 30+ years later. Thanks again ... |
In one of Ernest K.Gann`s books, during the take-off roll in a DC2(this was a really long time ago) the captain told his
seemingly depressed co-pilot to "cheer up" with unintended consequences. |
The instruction "Takeoff power" also had disastrous consequences once when the co-pilot took it off. A 4 engine prop plane in the 50s.
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Similar and happened on a line flight. And this relates a little to modern cadets not knowing pitch/power. On finals I noticed the speed was 'going to decay' because the power was too low after ending flap was achieved. I (later realised was a mistake) called power, because that was the error. Instinctively, without looking, the f/o reduced power. Ouch. I learnt something. Do not trust they know what you mean. However, the next time, I called "more power", and we leapt into the sky and just avoided a GA. You can't win.
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In a previous life we called "Selected, 3 Reds". No reds? Put it back then move the correct lever (you idiot)! :ok: :)
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Originally Posted by Aluminium shuffler
(Post 9304005)
With a V1 engine failure, certainly, but I doubt it in normal ops. It might have an influence on noise monitoring, and would have a marginal fuel penalty and delay rapid climb based short cuts of the SID, but I don't think it'd be a problem to delay the gear until 400' in normal operations.
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I don't disagree, Aero. There is no reason you couldn't stick with gear up as soon as airborne with a before Vr failure. If it fails after Vr, then you already have a small advantage over a V1 failure, and could have the gear retraction as an immediate memory item. But for normal ops, there is plenty of performance to leave the gear down.
The trouble is that it then starts opening multiple scenarios, their identification and procedures, so it's simpler to stick to immediate retraction at all times.. That's the problem with writing SOPs - balancing probabilities and risks. |
With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction.
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Many moons ago and a 707 struggling to climb out of Lusaka; damned thing just wouldn't accelerate.
Three on the flight deck of course and a 4th pair of eyes on a jumpseat - no one seemed to be able to find the reason. That is until the 4th pair of eyes noticed the gear was still down. |
Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
(Post 9295075)
Loganair back in the 80's had a policy of hitting flap up on touchdown on the Fokker F27 to dump lift and get the weight on the wheels.
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Hello 019. Didn't we change it after the Manchester accident? The grey cells aren't as agile as they used to be, and it's twenty-seven years since I last flew Mr Fokker's masterpiece. Edit. Grey cells fired up. I think we did retain the procedure; at least until I left the fleet.
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With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction. For almost thirty years windshear procedures in U.S. training have derived from the wisdom in Advisory Circular 00-54. Every training manual I've encountered since the AC was published in 1988 seems to have verbiage from this publication (e.g. the deviations of 15 knots, 500 feet per minute VS or 5 degrees of pitch definitions of windshear). I'm sure there is a corresponding ICAO document somewhere. The philosophy of maintaining configuration until out of the shear is explained on page 47 of the FAA document: CONFIGURATION Maintain flap and gear position until terrain clearance is assured. Although a small performance increase is available after landing gear retraction, initial performance degradation may occur when landing gear doors open for retraction. While extending flaps during a recovery after liftoff may result in a performance benefit, it is not a recommended technique because: 1) Accidentally retracting flaps (the usual direction of movement) has a large adverse impact on performance. 2) If landing gear retraction had been initiated prior to recognition of the encounter, extending flaps beyond a takeoff flap setting might result in a continuous warning horn which distracts the crew. |
AN extra set of eyes
Us: Tower: WoundedBird1 Outer Marker
Tower: WoundedBird1 Cleared to land. CFR in position Us: Please call "Check Gear" at 2 miles Tower: wilco ...never hurts to ask :-) |
Herod from Nineteen - check your PMs sir!
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Long time ago, a Beech model 18 pilot said "That danged horn was making so much noise I couldn't hear myself think". :ugh:
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OZL
Yep I think manufactures have over done warnings. If you ever get into large hail and associated turbulence, the noise does make it very hard to think. Takes marked discipline to overcome this human trait. As for Gear up Flaps Up again, muscle memory can over rule the thinking memory as muscle memory is actioned without/ before conscious thought. Whilst I once put my hands on the flap leaver & lifted it up, instead of the speed brakes in the edge of a thunderstorm I did not actually move the lever as my thinking process caught up just in time. So as a human I have great sympathy for this pilot who's thought process under stress (Hadn't flown for a while) reacted ahead of their thinking process. I should say that it takes exposure to stressors to be able to mitigate this type of error, which only comes with experience. These things happen, what more can I say, apart from even the automatics sometimes "do their own thing":confused: |
On the flight global page that the original link points to it says
Under European certification specifications the aircraft’s configuration – other than the position of its landing-gear – must not be changed until it has reached at least 400ft. What's that all about then? I've never seen any certification specifications that give any such restriction except OEI. Am I missing something? |
With the A320, a go around due to wind sheer requires no change in configuration until positively out of it. The landing gear is left down due to an increase in drag during retraction. |
@GlenQuagmire
Really? You're not familiar with a minimum acceleration altitude for normal ops? Or did you just think that was a company SOP? |
well aware of the certification requirements OEI and some types (B737 for example) have it in the flight manual but other types don't (not seen it on a bombardier aircraft for instance) and I have never seen it as a certification requirement. I'm asking where the certification requirements are that mandate a minimum flap retraction altitude all engines operating - never seen it, never heard of it. Flap retraction is predicated on speed not height with a minimum height (not altitude) in the event of an engine failure.
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