Seriously Finncapt ?
 

" The original post said

"I have several aquaintances.......who seem to......".

So I met a mate in a pub who knows a bloke ........

No one has been here to say he has done it and it happens/ed to me.

It's all hearsay.

Mods please put a stop to this, it is one of the stupidest threads I've ever seen on PPRuNe. "

It's a very valid thread, there are far more stupid threads. I worked for Ryanair and saw this practice almost everyday. It will all have to come to a halt once EASA get their way. There was plenty of talk from management that without this undocumented crew duty there would be no way of crewing their flights.

I'm really surprised at the calls to close the thread down. Why please ?

No let's not put a stop to this, just because it is actually an inconvenient truth that some people on here are bringing up into the open issues not only of how FR employees appear to be breaching DfT regulations, but also FTL and potentially tax and airport charges avoidance.

This commuting off duty does happen, and it is the mechanics and mechanisms around how it is allowed/got away with that is the issue here, amongst other things.

It is the case with 2 other UK airlines, one orange and one major charter operator, that whenever their staff are 'commuting' whether on or off duty, they are given a ticket and go through normal pax security and do NOT use their airside ID to gain access. As they have a ticket, they are complying also with airport charges and they are fully documented as using the airport. They have a legitimate reason to be airside as they are ticketed and departing on a specific flight.

The opposite is the case with this FR commuters issue.

1. Using airside IDs when not on duty is a breach of any UK airport's ID pass system and of a number of DfT rules.

2. It seems that the reason to breach the do not use your airside ID when not on duty is so that FR and it's employees can avoid providing proper ticketed boarding passes to their staff as that would mean paying airport taxes and also going through pax security.

3. If Ryanair aircrew are allowed to just do whatever they like when off duty with regards to airside access, then why can't absolutely anyone else with airside IDs. You are not superior even though you may like to think you are, when it comes to compliance with UK airport DfT procedures. After all, you all still have to go through a mandatory security search every single time you go airside, you are not and should not be exempt from any rules that any other airside worker is subject to! :ouch:

In a nutshell. Thank you!

This is a very dodgy practice, from a certain operator, encouraging it's pilots to blur the lines, and risk their own livelihood in the process. For whose benefit??? Definitely NOT the pilots'!

And who is defending this dodgy practice? Complaining here that it's all being brought to light??? Calling for the thread to be deleted/shut down, in case it rocks the boat?

Not that operator, (AFAWK) but PILOTS! (apparently??)

You couldn't make this stuff up!!!:ugh:

You miss the point entirely. No reason at all not to facilitate commuting, indeed it would be a particularly crass employer that didn't. But that is not the point being argued. Neither is envy over freebies, it had nothing to do with that either.

It is to do with Ryanair apparently gaining unfair commercial advantage by operating a typical Irish unwritten exemption to their FTL that effectively adds perhaps a day per week to the work they can get out of their crews. No one else has this advantage. It may well be that the company line is they you should declare these commuting days as duty and if you don't then you're not complying with the rules. But that would be a cynical fudge as they know crew can't afford to lose valuable duty days like that and simply won't declare them. That, if it is the case, would be a nice way for the company to weasel out of responsibility having engineered a system they knew damn well would work in a way that suits them. If that surmise is correct it would take only the most cursory audit of duty hours returns against end duty/start next duty locations and ticket sale records to reveal the scale of the scam. Crew go along with it because it is the only way to be/remain employed, and staying employed is the reason so few of the doubtless scores of their employees have followed this thread and not commented. The culture of fear is all-pervasive. Same reason they put up with no union and all the other crap they have to suffer as taxless, holidayless, pensionless, sick-payless self-accommodating nomads who have to pay for their own sim checks.

The rest of us have to abide by the law and buy staff travel tickets for a nominal sum (some get a few freebies) but all of these attract APT as a pax ticket has to. Why should just one have a system that allows them to circumvent this illegally, and to the company's massive commercial advantage?

Aviation is all about adherence to rules and blatant rule-breaking is usually regarded as unhealthy. That is why so many people are so irritated by this business. It is so blatant yet they continue to get away with it, and the IAA ain't gonna do a damn thing about it, of that you can be certain.

If all crew were declared employees, as they should be, then much of this blah blah would disappear. Commuting is not positioning. One is at the choice of the pilot the other at the company. If you are correctly given employee status then any positioning away from base would have to be rostered, organised & ticketed. Rules would followed for both duty times & use of ID's.
What the commuters do is another issue entirely. Personally, if you had to choose between various issues to resolve I would recommend that of employee should top the list.

Maybe the handling agents should report this clear breach of dft security when they become aware of this abuse of security by FR crew, as surely they know whats going on illegally at the gate.

Last month I decided on the spur of the moment to get a flight to UK directly after my duty, I was still in uniform with no bags or change of clothes. On arrival at a well known UK airport I was " ushered" to the crew channel, I explained I was just a PAX, they said " its OK Sir" no need to queue.. they were just being helpful and as far as I know this practice has been going on for years, not restricted to FR by a long shot. Now " outbound" UK or any European airport we should use PAX channels if not on duty as they need the obligatory mug shot to match at the gate computer if required when they scan the pass.. Why the OP picked on FR is a mystery and all this FTL stuff is smoke and mirrors to disguise a FR bash that's clearly not working and of little interest to " fellow pilots"

I'm not sure your experience is relevant, sorry.
 

Simply being ushered through crew arrivals, so What ? Being called Sir, now that's worthy of a mention, I would place money on the airport being somewhere other that Stn. But if you think 10 pages in a week ( 25 000 views )is not of interest to the pilot community then I would have to ask why you don't go on all of the many other threads with fewer interest and declare that no one cares about them either ?

I think you might have missed the point, sorry.

But it's not...

Commuting is travelling from your chosen home to your normal base. It is required to do your normal job, and is reasonable to require you to do it, but is not part of your job.

Positioning to somewhere other than your normal base is not commuting, it is relocating for the companies benefit. Therefore part of the job.

Avenger


I work for another airline and find this blatant abuse of FTL's very relevant, any pilot from any airline should also find it concerning. It's not an FR bash, but a topic that is being discussed about a common practise within FR. It wouldn't happen in the outfit I or other colleagues work for because their TU would be all over that and simply pilots wouldn't operate it if its not legal, safe in the knowledge they are protecting their licences and free from persecution.


This may well be a wide spread practise (positioning on rest days - not commuting and it not being recorded as duty period) in other airlines, that would be equally as bad, if you know of other airlines who do this also please share, only one I know of is FR. This will become if it isn't already an issue under EASA as it clearly states a pilot can only have one home base, so some of the sharp practise that certain other European operators used to do in the same way may not be undertaken (times in taxis counting as rest periods etc).


Why do I find it all very relevant, well because all of our employers seem to have an aspiration to strive to the lowest common denominator, if an outfit is getting away with something that is saving them money you can bet any other employer must be thinking "would be good if we could do that" and then T&C's come under attack. I liken it to a rampant disease that starts in your little toe can spread very quickly to other parts of the body unless you amputate it or get some very strong medication.


Perhaps you can explain why you believe pilots being required to undertake positioning duties in their rest periods/days off is smoke and mirrors and not a breach of FTL's please ?

Perhaps you can explain why you believe pilots being required to undertake positioning duties in their rest periods/days off is smoke and mirrors and not a breach of FTL's please ?

They are not 'required' people choose to accept a lifestyle to live where the planes are not and therefore do it by choice.

I live near the airport I fly from but I could equally live in another country. As long as I get to my base for my flight wether by air, sea or land is irrelevant.

The point that your missing is that if I travel by FR to work I am not a pax but recorded as crew! Hence on duty in theory.

Buy a ticket and the issue goes away!!

Thats the issue none wants to spend out and 'buy' a ticket to get to work because working for FR is sold on a free commute if you cant be based at home.

And FR sure as hell don't want you to count the hours of your commute.

The OP questioned the basic mechanics of how this system of free tickets on FR can work with the "assumption" that the positioning pilot was " additional or Sn " crew.. then muddied with briefings etc etc .. later the OP asked about the aspect of FTLs.
The thread has largely ignored the first point that FR crews, along with many others, can get free staff travel and just turn up at the gate, maybe the difference is that the FR crews don't get a ticket but I am sure they are LMC on the load sheet.. other airlines issue a blank boarding pass..
As pointed out, if you self position for your own needs it is not duty and the company doesn't give fig, neither do the authorities... on the other hand if the question is, is it sensible before a duty to position across Europe, and are you rested enough.. that's another topic and one that was well ventilated about BA long haul crews living abroad. Personally, I can get more rest tucked away in the aircraft with headphones under a blanket than I can get trundling around the M25 and can arrive " rested" .
Dont a fair chunk of NLH live abroad? Along with many others on commute contracts ? or are we now saying Joe Bloggs is going to position across Europe after and before each duty? The reason I say fellow pilots are " not interested" is not the topic but the implication that once again, a small benefit of the job may be eroded by some red tape rubber stamp Jonny in whitehall.
IF the company ask you to position on an " OFF DAY" it is no longer an off day and is duty.. full stop.. positioning AFTER a duty is usually not duty if it can be accomplished within the normal FDP. It only effects rest required.
So in the Nutshell, pilots that choose to live away from base for their own lifestyle needs and take advantage of free travel or un-ticketed travel do so under their own responsibility, how can we possibly hold airlines to account for this?
As for airports allowing access through crew channels, this is up to the guy on the gate at the time, yes he/she may be breaking the rules by doing a favour..
Lastly, I bet my bottom dollar that we have all at some time had the call " I know you are off...but can you do us a favour... etc etc" the cloth cuts both ways

No, again sorry, you missed the point
 

But I thought you thought it was a bit too tedious ? The point you have noted simply do not address the issue, luckily EASA have not, come late Feb the " hard rules " kick in, the " soft rules " will also implicate Ryan.

Perhaps read the thread, if you can be bothered? It's pretty tedious, and not remotely what you are on about. The law has been broken. Defend that perhaps ?

But wrong, wrong, misinformed and wrong, was better before you were interested, but you aren't? And it isn't?

So ?

For those resident in the UK (and possibly elsewhere), isn't there a tax implication? I'm sure that if my employer provided free air travel, or even gave me a free bus pass to commute from home to my normal place of work, the Inland Revenue would be in touch to get their share of a taxable benefit. On the other side of that, if my local airport was designated my normal place of work and I drove there at my own expense before my employer flew me elsewhere, that would be tax free but for flight crew it would fall foul of the FTL rules.

Yes and it gives FR an unfair competitive advantage. If they are positioning as crew they should be getting paid for their time. If they're commuting they should have to pay for their ticket.

Neither of these practices is occurring.

What is bothering you all? Jumpseating is common practice in aviation. In Europe we copied it from the other side of the pond. Where they probably have the same issues with airside passes, security and an IRS.
I applaud any initiative to stop unfair benefits for the company RYR, but this is not exclusively for RYR, it is for many pilots of many airlines all over Europe, and it works fine!

:*

They used to have a wonderful system in Spain,where, like the system (pre 9/11 I guess ) in the USA, you showed your badge & were accommodated.

It still exists, but the companies have been forced by "Aunty EASA" (or maybe the Dept of Transport equivalent in Spain ) to try to interfere in cockpit jump seat occupation. . . . . feckin crazy, I bet if someone had been sitting on the jump seat of the Spanair Mad Dog in MAD back in 2008 it wouldn't have ended the way it did . . . . always astonished how many errors I spot from the jump seat, no pressure, no role to play . . . easy-peasy.


Anyway, drifting from the thread subject, back to stirring the brown stuff you bunch of happy campers (or did I misspell that last word :hmm: )

Say Mach Number,


That is true only for those who choose to commute from home to assigned base. When you are sent to another base than your assigned base you are traveling there at the behest of the operator, on your OFF day, no duty time/min rest recorded. If you are in Ryanair, you know that's happening all the time!!!

I don't buy that. I've done hundreds of commutes in FR. Never once have these commutes been recorded on the Voyage report as crew. There has been no trail in my Duty Plan. My roster says OFF, except for the rostered deadheading to recurrent training. The only little trail is my crewcode on the loadsheet, but that's hardly proof of me being on duty.

It is counted as duty time, NOT flight duty time (as per the operations manual) and therefore you are on duty but not likely to affect your FTL's. Details are recorded and have been for a number of years, previously not. The new regulations will require some changes and are currently being negotiated with IAA.

But surely it will because it affects the local time you went ON duty.

Very picky/pedantic
 

Fact:PILOTS COMMUTE
Best way:Ticketed(ID00) normal channels,sits in Business,free champagne no uniform
Option 1:Ticketed(ID00) normal channels,sits in Business,no champagne in uniform
Option 2:Crew ID on Gen Dec,crew channels,sits in Business no champs
Option 3:Crew ID on Gen Dec,crew channels,j/s ride
Option 4:Crew ID no Gen Dec,crew channels,(used pre 911,still used except some places)
Option 5:Crew ID at gate in transit,ask operating skipper direct-works domestic
Option 6:Crew ID at Flt OPS of another carrier and ask crew for j/s-works well in Asia
The impossible option(so it would seem):try to commute from or to any UK airport without a passenger ticket.
I note i)an OPERATING crew member arriving at LHR,for example,can not enter the departure shopping area during a turnaround without first exiting through arrivals and then re-entering through normal departure channels.Pilots like to shop.Its one of the perks.Its done the world over except...where the lunatics run the asylum.
i)An operating crew member on a turnaround at a UK airport can and sometimes is literally prevented from performing a walkaround due jetway sec code access.And when access is given(they wont give code)you cant get back in!NUTS.

Fortunately,I dont commute via EU much.But if I had to,I would avoid the UK.

This discussion sure makes me appreciate the KCM system in use in the US.

Sorry 111 what exactly is your point? I was under the impression this was a discussion forum yet your focus seems to be a crusade for EASA FTLs and tighter movements of crew..how precisely is this in the interests of self positioning crew wanting a life style choice.. maybe you missed the point!

Incidentally could you please provide a ref for the soft rules and hard rules comment I can't find this, thanks

Question.

Which is the legal document?

A) Published roster
B) Operations manual

Any topic starting with Ryanair always gets a good hit rate it is not a reflection of the quality more the inverse relationship between quality and volume. Perhaps the thread could be re titled to cover the broader concept ? At THY if you want to self position you need a ticket it's not duty. If I'm required to position to another base for a flight by the company its duty not flight duty and the time recorded according to time spent.

Briefly then oro.ftl.235 to 245, the overall ref, but;
 

At the moment we have " implementation rules " the intention being that they can be changed, by operators. For example from CAA.co.uk, EASA FTL.

" Variations

Within the new regulations there are two standard variations that an operator may apply for:

Two pilot flight duty period limits when un-acclimatised
Reduced rest provisions
These both require an increased level of risk assessment and full Fatigue Risk Management (FRM) approval. Unless an operator already holds an FRM approval, they will not be granted one with their initial EASA Subpart FTL scheme and therefore will not initially be able to use these variations. "

So what I mean is that some rules are set hard, others not. Whilst Easy for instance have a FRM program, to my knowledge Ryan, do not. For years now they have been telling pilots that they can't be tired because some guy they said was ex NASA, said that their roster was " grand " . Just an example of the 2 operating approaches.

I don't want to restrict any pilots lifestyle choice, I would like to see the end of abuse of regulation, to prevent another Buffalo accident

We have shown time and time again in this thread that commuting in uniform is an approved way of travel. Sure, you might think that there are some grey areas and issues but it is obvious that these issues have been resolved with the authorities otherwise a lot of crew would have their passes revoked in the last two hours alone! So please all stop making a fool of yourselves by shouting that security will pull passes etc.

Targeting commuting to prevent a 'Buffalo'? By making life impossible for thousands of pilots (of ALL airlines!) who commute responsibly? Whilst it is time and agaoin shown that rules are not being abused? That's a bit over the top don't you think?

Unfair competition? Any airline can apply the rules to facilitate their crew to commute. So no unfair competition.

Or there is sensible arrangement with the authorities that cater for the special circumstances involving airlines, airplanes, pilots, ships, crew, 1000 km commutes, etc. Like there are many many many sensible arrangements with the authorities in every other sector.

I think we all know that both commuting and positioning/deadheading in uniform is Ok on many airlines ( actually a requirement into/out of some countries)..so no argument there..

OK, but health warning still applies. It seems certain airlines have an arrangements in place certain airports ( and chapeau to those who organised it if the arrangements allow free travel and/or makes life easier), but it would be dangerous to assume that the likes of using Staff lanes and ID for positioning/commuting is a given right for all airlines in Europe at all airports in Europe, because it very much most definitely isn't...in many places the local regs are not "grey" at all.

That goes without saying wiggy. But that does not mean that arrangements cannot be made. :ok:

I think the OP was, IMHO, just pooh stirring and indulging in RYR bashing. I'm no fan of some of their business practices as it relates to the working conditions of professional pilots but I've flown with enough ex RYR guys to know it's not all bad either.

The issue of positioning/commuting is, I suspect, a grey area in RYR. However, I realise that a lot of commuters at RYR are probably doing so out of necessity. They are not commuters through choice as you might find at BA and VS for example. If the company has a way of allowing that that makes it easier for them then who am I, or anyone else, to criticise.

The posts I've found really annoying are the ones about airside access ie. the "having an airport ID does not confer access etc" brigade. :ugh:

The use of an ID, in this context, if it is allowed by the airport/DfT is just a means to avoid the potentially longer queues in the public screening areas. The end result will be the same as the commuting (positioning) pilot will end up airside at the gate. Of course if he/she used their ID to access the airport when not traveling they would, quite rightly, lose their ID if caught. Also, bear in mind that whichever way you get airside the process is the same in terms of screening.

In fact a few years ago BALPA agreed a protocol with the DfT that commuting and positioning crews could use the staff search areas subject to certain caveats. From memory I believe that one could only do so within 24 hours of a duty and if requested would need to show your roster if asked to do so. However, when I tried to do so I got a "sorry mate, we ain't heard about this". At the time I emailed the AVSEC chap at BALPA and he said this airport had signed up to the agreement.

Anyway, just my two penn'orth.

BBK

Perhaps the Schengen border rules have something to do with it, where arrangements certainly cannot be made.

Having witnessed several times the arrest of commuting pilots who thought that the rules didn't apply to them, I think any pilot that isn't 100% aware of immigration/emigration rules as well as local security procedures is leaving themselves wide open to a world of hurt. At LGW/LHR, for instance, the removal of air-side passes has been threatened, which I assume would lead to dismissal. I can't imagine that within the UK (with its rabid adherence to rules and regs) it would be any different at another airport.
We have had several incidents related to "flight deck breaches" where the "breacher" is a employee/crewmember/pilot, but the correct procedures or paperwork hadn't been followed. In one case, the CAA were looking at prosecution.
In Spain, I saw one pilot arrested by the Guardia Civil, for swiping when not actually on duty. Just because you've got away with it doesn't necessarily mean it is legal. Just be careful out there.....

Thank you BBK for your insightful post. Especially re the arrangement with BALPA.


hunterboy, commuters will be well aware of all the rules regarding commuting in uniform as laid down in their company manuals. There really is no need for you to remind them that misuse of airline ID can get them in trouble, let alone arrested or suspended. Do you remind your doctor to wash his hands after you?

Thanks for putting us all in the picture PENKO
 

A well argued point, clearly and succinctly put. Can't believe we were discussing it really. So all settled then, thanks. You taught us all a lesson.

May as well close the thread now as you have proved everything " over and over again " so impressed

Took long enough to remember these apparent answers.

I'm glad I'm not required to make such 'donations' of time and effort to my employer. I am also thankful that they have enough staff and good sense to employ sufficient crew without expecting us to make these donations to subsidise the company.

Continue to enjoy your little heap.

CC

There are two distinct items being discussed here. And this is my opinion.

First, positioning flights. These are where your employer is sending you from airport 1 to airport 2 so you can then be crew from airport 2. This is considered work and counts towards whatever hours, charges etc you have. You should be listed on the manifest as crew or a passenger for this. If as crew, then crew routes are open to you. If as a passenger, you should have a ticket and boarding card and use the passenger routes regardless of the fact that you may have a security pass for airport A.

Second is commuting. This is where you choose to live near airport A but are based at airport B and it is your responsibility to get to airport B. In this case, this is not work and you should always be on the manifest as a passenger with a ticket/boarding card. You should ALWAYS use the passenger routes in this instance.

Could someone please explain the "tax paid sector cheque" ?

Yep, it seems like some folks stay up nights thinking of rules and excuses not to do something. We do have it good with jumpseats in the U.S.

At bases like EWR, LGA and JFK well over half of the pilots commute more than 100 miles to go to work. 9-11 raised the bar as far as authentication but we do enjoy reciprocal free rides on most U.S. carriers including cargo airlines. :ok: