Hotel security
 

Airport hotel security

With all due respect to seniorpilot in his thankless role as a moderator, I think there may have been an error of judgement in moving the thread about the Volga-Dnepr crew murdered in Bomako to the Freight Dogs forum.

Yes, anyone can access and continue the conversation in that Forum. However the basic issue is that these were off-duty airline crew who were killed while away from home because they were working. They were not, as the header for Freight Dogs says, using "the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see" - they were in a hotel that might equally well have been used by passenger flight pilots and cabin crew.

Freight Dogs forum is "for pilots and crew who operate mostly without SLF", so those who operate mostly WITH SLF aren't routinely going to follow the (by definition) more specialised conversations that, rightly, dominate it.

The Volga-Dnepr crew members weren't murdered because they were freight flyers. Many of us have flown freight at one time or another, it was my first command. Leaving the discussion under R&N might have stimulated some useful discussion of the issues of security at crew hotels which affect all of us. For example I for one was never happy about the routine practice of having crew hold bags collected by hotel bell-boys - hopefully that no longer happens.

So: is everyone happy that the hotels they stay pay any attention to the particular security issues that are generated by airline crew presence?

12 airfrance aircrew were also in the hotel, luckily none of them harmed.


Our suitcases have to be hauled by ourselves from even before 9-11.

I think the better question would be, if you replace:
- 'airline crew': by 'foreigners belonging to another ethnicity or religion'
- 'hotels': by 'country'
They were not targeting aviation staff, as such.
If you're counting solely on hotel security to keep you safe, then you're in the wrong part of the world (I know, not really by choice)

Quote from slast:
'...the basic issue is that these were off-duty airline crew who were killed while away from home because they were working. They were not, as the header for Freight Dogs says, using "the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see" - they were in a hotel that might equally well have been used by passenger flight pilots and cabin crew.'

True, and - as the news item to which tubby linton has provided the link reports - the primary target of the terrorists was (predictably) an Air France crew slipping in the same hotel between passenger flights.

Years ago on the B707-320C, we sometimes operated a freight flight into Lagos, and then a passenger flight out, or vice-versa. All crews stayed in the same sumptuous hotel in Ikeja... :}

A valid thread in the current light of events worldwide.

Isn't there some suspicion that the bomb planted on the Metrojet aircraft could have been placed in hold baggage at a hotel in Sharm? I understood some hotel workers may have been questioned?

I never let my bags out of my site when checking out. Checking in, maybe....

Perhaps you could make a list of the "safe" places where a gang of armed men pose no threat?

The reality is that even hotels with secure lift and guest floor access are no match for armed gangs filled with righteous anger and the belief in a greater good.

I think the French can feel rightly proud of themselves at the moment, but I wouldn't want to be French aircrew stopping anywhere.

We stay in hotels around the world at the behest of our employers, who we trust to have done due diligence regarding security of the hotel, the transport and the country.

How certain are you that your company is doing this corectly?

Just a little story from my airline past, we laid over in a city in a country where they take security Very seriously, I was working for a very fine outfit who also took their responsobility for crew safety seriously, in fact the only folks suposed to know our hotel were our diplomatic staff, crew sked supivisors and flight ops management, however on one ocasion I spent a fair bit of money in the local market buying some musical instruments for the kids, on returning to my room I recieved a phone call, it was Visa Canada confirming that I had indeed spent the money! So much for security!

It's worth noting that this wasn't some crummy flea-bag hotel - it was a nice western hotel. Which is probably why it was targeted as it caters primarily to westerners.
I've stayed at some hotels in Indonesia that had pretty impressive security (including the Marriott in Jakarta that was bombed several years ago) and it did make me feel 'safer'. But that security was aimed at stopping a car-bomb or lone gunman.
I've yet to see hotel security - anywhere - that would reliably stop a gang of eight or ten heavily armed suicidal radicals that stormed the entrance. :ugh:

Just remember that just because you are not in a Third World country's hotel, that makes you safe from terrorist attacks while staying in a hotel. Even in your own country for that matter.

For a reminded, go to the main entrance of the Grosvenor Square Marriott Hotel in London.

The bullet holes are still there.

Was once, a long time ago, the habit to leave crew cargo bag outside hotel room for collection, Air India lost a B747 over the Atlantic, people started ro realise that would be an easy way to get a bomb on board and that procedure was stopped overnight.

One of our current crew hotels has had 3 or 4 serious security incidents over the past year. There have been so many written complaints made to management it is hard to count exactly how many. The bog standard answer we get is that security has reviewed the hotel an are comfortable with it. Makes me very uncomfortable as crew as you can't refuse to go there without risking your job but always feel vunurable when there due to the lax nature of the security.

How things have changed in a relatively short time. In the early 90s, we sometimes overnighted in Karachi with a departure of around 2.30 am. At the time, there were frequent exchanges of fire in the suburbs between the different warring factions (and we were instructed to stay above 3000' AGL until clear of the built up areas on approach to avoid ground fire).

We would all climb into the crew bus a little after midnight and the interior lights would be left on all the way from the hotel to the airport so that both warring sides could see that the bus was full of pink faces and therefore they should hold their fire.

Today, such a 'plan' would result in both sides selecting full auto and letting loose with every weapon available - or fighting each other to see who would kidnap the pinkies for a mass head-lopping.

The reality is this....

You ARE safer than in many third world county hotels.

If you are in Bamako, Mali or Tripoli, Libya, etc, there is probably only one or two nice hotels and that is likely where the crew of a decent airline will be staying. If you are a terrorist targeting westerners, there are not many other choices in the entire country.

If you are staying in London, the terrorist has thousands of options from landmarks to a multitude of hotels to transportation, etc.

Therefore, it is less likely that you will be at the wrong place at the wrong time. In Bamako and Tripoli, etc, you spend most of your time at the wrong but hopefully at the right time.

Plus, there is better policing in most of the western countries and at least for now....less persons from the one religion tied in with almost all of these attacks.

Hi,

Even well prepared soldiers can struggle - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack...ard_checkpoint

So, in reality the question becomes what personal/team contingency plan are you going to have?

The first key decision is: 'stay put/run'

Once you have made that decision you can then make a plan based on the local circumstances. eg:

Stay put: where are you going to stay put - how can you secure it. what are you going to do about water food (The Taj Mahal hotel attack started on 26 Nov and ended on 29 Nov)?

Run: Routes exits rally points

If your company has selected the hotel, I would expect a threat assessment and advice to crews for each location.

HTH

EG

Highlighted the oxymoron.

It seems that that Luton Menzies Hotel is 'permanently closed' (since two years ago).

It seems that that Luton Menzies Hotel is 'permanently closed' (since two years ago).

What happened to the 'Esso' Hotel on Dunstable Road? (35 years ago)
Not the Travelodge close to the M1 - the Esso was where the Chiltern Hotel is now (next to the Esso garage . . . )