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The triangular shaped protrusion at the top left of this image:
http://cdn.aviaforum.ru/images/2015/...22868c7e21.jpg appears not to be present in the second photograph just provided. |
A second point that has been bothering me a bit is all the finger pointing at ISIS. The Russians have been very busy for the last few weeks bombing Al Nustra front positions (read: Al Quida), so they are more likely to be the group with a grudge against Russia. "Even before the military operation in Syria, the General staff of the Defense Ministry made a responsible decision. The essence of this solution lies in our traditional Russian desire to adhere strictly to the principles of legality and justice. So now, all of our munitions are divided into two categories: regular and moderate. Against ordinary terrorists, we use only conventional munitions. Against moderate terrorists, we use solely moderate ammunition. So don't worry, we take into account the moderation of some of the terrorists and treat them with justice." To clarify, I asked: "Tell me, how your conventional munitions differ from the moderate?" "Our conventional munitions differ from moderate exactly the same as regular terrorists in Syria are different from the moderate terrorists: they are painted with different paint, in a lighter and more moderate tones," - said the officer and hung up. |
are we sure this last H S picture is the Left? |
The triangular shaped protrusion at the top left of this image: appears not to be present in the second photograph just provided. |
good point propduffer
Originally Posted by Propduffer
(Post 9174434)
This is an outstanding thread, a credit to PPrune but there are two kinds of posts I've mostly skipped over. The first kind are the "picture analysis" posts which seem to be a separate subject to me. The second type of posts I discount are the ones that propose that if the front joint of the HS were to disengage the HS would flop to 90° to the flight path. I don't have a picture of a ready to install 321 HS but if someone can find such a picture I'm sure it will show that about 2/3rds of the surface area is behind the pivot point. Thus MD80 fanatic is correct in his statement that the HS would align itself with the wind direction in case of loss of the front connection.
It is possible that when the tail section separated from the rest of the plane the VS caught the 280kt (IAS) wind blast and overpowered the HS effects and caused the HS to snap from leading edge down to leading edge up (or even back and forth) and imposed destructive loads. But that can only be a theory for now. A second point that has been bothering me a bit is all the finger pointing at ISIS. The Russians have been very busy for the last few weeks bombing Al Nustra front positions (read: Al Quida), so they are more likely to be the group with a grudge against Russia. Again: great thread! (a)My poor memory of early construction picture showed two rear pivots well aft. (b)even so, loss of control stiffness would likely lead to flutter to destruction very rapidly indeed, coupled with shredding and shedding of trailing edge components., rapid up downbending loads Sorry to repeat. I've been there seen that. |
Kulvers, I think we are talking about a different thing.
The part I am talking about is on the top left of the piece in the photo I linked to; it is a triangular shaped protrusion to the side. It ought therefore to be present on the top right of the piece in the second photograph as the angle is reversed, if indeed it is the same piece. I cannot see it. (I don't think this is the same piece of the plane) |
thank you Kulverstukas
Originally Posted by Kulverstukas
(Post 9174416)
And if it is trailing edge, we now face strange picture about any control surfaces (rudder, elevators, slats etc.) are torn off or missing (not shown to us).
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Sorry, Please, are we sure this last H S picture is the Left? not a djfferent one (>starboard?) The triangular shaped protrusion at the top left of this image: http://cdn.aviaforum.ru/images/2015/...22868c7e21.jpg appears not to be present in the second photograph just provided. to 99.9 %, compare here (curvature as inverted wing, metallic attachment point to the rear, same composite failure upwards): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...B6henruder.jpg and the other picture of the same HS (LH) http://cdn.aviaforum.ru/images/2015/...22868c7e21.jpg |
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Kulverstukas
Number 1, there. Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to annotate a photo and then insert it here :O
Also I think the profile of #3 (squarish protrusion to the upper surface) is slightly different in the two photographs. It could of course be a camera/distance issue, I'm not certain. |
Gave me second thoughts at first, but just spent a couple of minutes comparing the two photos, they are definitely the same, just a trick is played by the camera angle.
The triangular bit (1) is the remnants of a frame on the underside of the skin much behind the fracture plane. There are several broken layers of the composite skin. The brownish one is the middle at (3) is hiding the gray plane which is visible clearly from the other side. |
As I told you, this video was shoot from point where #1 is located (if a bit further, then it's under lower text overlay). Triangular thingy is a rib and possibly pivot point for elevator, thus reinforced. Which can explain why it stays.
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Oh I understand now - perspective - I thought you meant the other cameraman.
Many thanks, and apologies for being a dufus.. |
Originally Posted by flash8
(Post 9174291)
Egypt almost certainly. It will (going on previous form) never be admitted by them to be a bomb, that is the only certainty coming out of Egypt I'm afraid.
Well it is probably a bomb according to an Egyptian source quoted on the BBC. |
Originally Posted by Kulverstukas
(Post 9174474)
As I told you, this video was shoot from point where #1 is located (if a bit further, then it's under lower text overlay). Triangular thingy is a rib and possibly pivot point for elevator, thus reinforced. Which can explain why it stays.
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HS top? LE?
Ok, thanks FDM, LE/TE very clear by your pic. Deleted all previously written in this post, except: So What caused the flutter? Control linkage failure? HS pivot failure?
Very difficult to imagine a force breaking the HS along the line it did break. |
FDM, exactly! If only - I think - this trailing triangular point visible is next rib.
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Originally Posted by andrasz
(Post 9174143)
@ slats11
Anyone with basic understanding of the dynamics and effects of an explosion at 31 thousand feet at 400 knots would and should instantly recognise that the video cannot show this accident, smoke will never propagate that way under those conditions. Also such black smoke comes from a sustained incomplete combustion of heavy carbon compounds (heavy fuels, plastics, rubber, etc.), a bomb (especially high explosives)will give off a puff of white smoke, as the essence of a chemical explosion is instantaneous complete combustion. [...] I'm generally skeptical, too, and dismissed the video when it first came out, but as details of the crash have become clearer, I'm not as certain anymore. To refute your absolute claims, I'd like to refer you to the following video which shows practice shoot-downs of drones by US Air National Guard planes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xISpZYajveA In particular, look at the "kill" at 3:22 - the missile hit apparently releases and ignites a plume of fuel from the target drone, which initially burns brightly, and then turns into a puff of black smoke. If you continue watching, for a while, there's only a small flame visible on the wreckage until a few seconds later when the flame gets larger and a visible trail of black smoke develops again. This is by no means conclusive proof that the footage is real, but it refutes your very absolute claims that the black smoke is impossible under the conditions of the flight. I'm still very skeptical of the reality of the footage, but I think your absolute rejection is based on shaky arguments. |
RE Phoenix #1781 (permalink)
#1781 (permalink)
"Unrolled" fuselage is not relevant, since the aircraft at cruise altitude(inflated state) behaves as a punctured balloon. https://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/m...sion-minimyth/ show what can happen using same differential pressures as at altitude. Note the section of body part at 1:40 they are hiding behind showing typical inside absent interior trim. And the extra reinforcing around the windows, the long stringers, and part frame( circumferentials ) As to the photo- it **might** be the result of the plane tumbling at speed so the body ' tube" is into the airstream . |
FDMII
An interesting picture of the L/H HS from Kulverstukas - it seems it is, as it logically should be, an inverted airfoil - doesn't it? If so, it looks like the found part would be from the Right side? Don't you think? And if so, it also looks as if the Leading Edge is missing? Of course my eyes are not what they once were... |
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