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Procuror talking
Procuror 1230
2nd black box not located 30 min entirely recorded 20 minutes normal courteous cdb is heared doing briefing landing DUS and answers very short (laconic) we hear captain ask f/o to takes control seat going back and door closing natural need f/o alone fms manoeuvred to command descent of the aircraft voluntary action lot of call by the captain to open the door with public address no answer knocks on the door no reply human respiration can be heard until the end of flight so pilot alive Marseille control calls repeatidly no reply atc controller asks for 7700 no reply atc ask other pilots to radio relayed to ctc MRS no reply alarms ground proximity loud bang like to smash the door pull up pull up before impact first noise on a talus before hitting mountain no mayday mayday our interpretation and plausible : F/Oi voluntarily refused to open the door to captain and action the button to order the lost of altitude. Reason unknown but can be analysed as to destroy the aircraft Andreas Lubitz is the name |
Co-pilot and deliberate...?
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Sorry, how would you manage this scenario. PNF goes to toilet. About to open door passenger attempts to enter cockpit as well. I hardly see how it's different to how it works now anyway. If someone REALLY wants to get in when the pilot needs a toilet break, they can. Again, it's all probability of risk. The only way to circumvent it altogether is to put a toilet in a cockpit? But in response to the post you were replying to, The 2 pilot in seat idea wouldn't work and it's just something else to go wrong and overly complicated. Why? |
Enoon:
Incidentally and on another point, my heart goes out to the engineers who maintain the aircraft. Every time something happens the morons in the media note that the aircraft recently had some fault corrected, and explicitly or implicity, begin to point their uninformed fingers of blame. I am sure that the maintenance crews are already racking their brains and searching their consciences and such accusations must be very distressing for them. An ex Air Force acquaintance of mine worked in later life at a facility overhauling helicopter gearboxes for numerous operators. Whenever a helicopter crashed his demeanor changed and he genuinely become very anxious and fearful that the crash might have been caused by an act or omission of his while performing a gearbox overhaul. His stress and anxiety eventually reached a level where he left the industry. So I feel the maintainers out there and understand what thoughts they must be having when one of the aircraft they service everyday has a tragic accident. |
Reasons
So now that we know what happened the next phase is to find out why...
People must be pretty desperate to take 149 people with them. It could be terrorism but he didn't say anything,so no religious or political screams prior to a martyr death. Keeping silent means a missed unique terror opportunity. This therefore sounds like extreme depression of a 24 year old leading to a suicide unable to think of consequences for others. I hope for the aviation industry his reasoning was not around the current financial woes of young pilots who have invested the value of a house to get a job which in many cases now only pays a mediocre salary. |
Something not really clear to me.... why the FO have to lock the Cpt outside and start the descent?! I can't think about deliberate suicide from a young man actually statiscally, youngs commit suicide the most. |
In the days when I was flying I controlled access to my office!
How many more people must die before they review this "locked door" policy? And don't give me this blah, blah, blah, about terrorists etc. I have had enough of this. And I could also fly a Tiger Moth. |
The locked door approach seems to have contributed to a number of incidents. Some form of key kept inside the flight deck that a crew member could take with them if they are leaving is something to look at. We seem happy to have a crash axe inside the flight deck, why not a key to get in the door as well.
Regarding why crew on a sub-2 hour flight even need to use The Facilities rather than before starting, that is I am afraid a feature of LCCs, minimum turnrounds at the outer point all scheduled by operational research down to the minute, everyone busy, and a desire to stick any delay in turnround on somebody. So the practice develops of doing so once you reach the cruise. Likewise the LCC justification for not having a cabin crew member step in is, I suspect, that on a sub-2 hour sector they are expected to be up and selling from the cart the moment the belts sign goes off. It's a question for the various boards of directors, whether commercial zeal has been allowed to get ahead of operational integrity. |
Piggy Back is right.
SELECTION - that's a problem. Psychological tests should be implemented in EVERY airline. Not only native language check. |
His name - Andreas Lubitz - both traditional German names.
28yrs - 630 hrs flying |
@J74
I can't think about deliberate suicide from a young man Where have you been hiding all these years? Sadly there are many young people who will take their own lives. As far as the question of 'secrecy' by the authorities is concerned, if this was America then I'd be pointing at the lawyers insisting that everything was run past them first. Strong possibility that this might be happening here. Even to the extent of insurance companies calling the shots? For example, in the UK many schools with Public Liability Insurance are forbidden by their insurers from admitting or even apologising for any incident. Crazy world. |
If this is correct what an awful situation and terrible for the families. We know nothing about the FO and his background was he a mentally unstable Lad or someone with Radical views i.e. terrorist actions?
Airbus will be relieved that their aircraft was not at Fault German wings will say their pilot held a first class medical Who will be held at fault the medical profession? Very Very sad I cannot understand the mentality of someone who could do this to so many people in his care if true I hope for the aviation industry his reasoning was not around the current financial woes of young pilots who have invested the value of a house to get a job which in many cases now only pays a mediocre salary. |
AndyJS
That is a junk web site with info hoovered up from the FAA pilot register. |
No mobile or SMS from passengers? Can investigation board demand raw data from mobile providers aling the route?
Pax electronic devices? Any recovered? Content examined? |
The lunacy of the locked cockpit door policy has been exposed here, at NO time should anyone person be able to block access to the flight deck. We would almost be better to go back to a light door that can be locked but is not impenetrable when forced. Someone trying to break in from the outside is likely to be stopped by crew and passengers, sadly with the current policy no one can intervene once someone gets to be alone behind that door.
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It does rather seem that the decision to install intrusion proof Flight Deck Doors has become a victim of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
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about F/O
F/O was entitled to pilot
Don't know how old Preciously the procurer said rather loudly : he is not a terrorist if you want me to say that. At the very end of the record shouts are heard. Death is immediate. F/O was 28 |
If this is correct what an awful situation and terrible for the families. We know nothing about the FO and his background was he a mentally unstable Lad or someone with Radical views i.e. terrorist actions? Airbus will be relieved that their aircraft was not at Fault German wings will say their pilot held a first class medical Who will be held at fault the medical profession? Very Very sad I cannot understand the mentality of someone who could do this to so many people in his care if true When a family member tried to commit suicide, I had a real hard time trying to understand why or how - it just made me frustrated. The problem is, they are not thinking logically. It's completely illogical. That's one of the big issues with Mental health. It's hard to relate to or comprehend unless you have been in that situation and thought in such a way at some time or another (Which I have not) This is something the families will have to deal with. The problem is, this is the worst probable outcome, as part of the grieving process is knowing and understanding "Why" - Which if it was mechanical is easier than this, as you cannot comprehend or make sense of it logically. I feel for the families. |
A room full of elephants
Lets start at the top.
Germanwings is a low cost operation. This means what it says on the tin. Low cost. The public only sees low fares, but that is not possible without low cost. So where do low cost companies cut the cost? Everywhere! Staffing, training, maintenance, terms and conditions, HR, fuel, flight and duty hours, you name it, it is all done at the lowest possible cost. Finance people love this, but we as pilots know one basic thing: Safety cost money. The captain of this ill fated flight was a Lufthansa captain. Or was he? Was he not a Germanwings captain? Did he do this transfer happily, or was it a case of "you do this or else?" The first officer was a low hour pilot. Nothing unusual about this. I was one myself. But when I started my company put me through a lot of training before the gave me a type rating. Yes, I did not have to pay for it! Well, both training and terms and conditions for new hires have been reduced. A lot. In my airline, this affects the motivation of the new guys. They earn slightly more that a McDonalds worker. The LH group pilots are in conflict with their management. They have been on strike. Pensions and salaries, and if the rumor is correct, GW is heading for a big reduction in both. I have been in the same situation. A lot of pressure from the top, including turning other airline staff agains the "overpaid and underworked" pilots. Threats of bankruptcy and loss of job and income While all this was going on, we were supposed to fly as usual. Safe and on time. Not let any management bullying affect us. Did it? Of course. Some more than others. A lot of complaining and pissed off pilots. Some went sick. Depression? Who knows, but guys got tired. Not fit for flight. Most went to work anyway. We are stuck behind a CRM barrier in the shape of a steel door. It keeps the bad guys out, but it also enables a suicidal pilot to lock out his colleague. This industry is getting sicker by the day. I am sure there will be more accidents before a red flag is raised. The Americans have started to reverse the situations. How many accidents do we need in Europe before we do the same? |
Tabloid reports are .....tabloid reports.
However, an Air India Express incidence a few years ago indicates a possible scenario: Captain went to the toilet...the inexperienced F/O involountarily disconnected the A/P when alone in the cockpit and the aircraft entered a steep descent....the F/O was too panicked/busy to let the captain back into the cockpit....the captain finally gained emergency entry and literally crawled (according to himself) over his seat and pulled back the yoke....aircraft overstressed during recovery...but recovered after several thousand feet descent. Once, while deadheading, I had to use the emergency entry procedure when the cockpit crew was in an "undesirable mental state". During that incidence I had more adrenaline in my body than during my other 40+ aviation years combined, and it took some combined effort to get the code right during the stress of the moment. During line checks or LPCs I regularly ask the crew for the current code: Not everybody remembers the latest, revised one. If you press an outdated code, you will not get access.....simple. I have witnessed several cases of door failures that had to be reset. In case of a rapid, severe decompression the door is designed to blow open, so that scenario (decompression/door knocking) is unlikely IMHO. As other has pointed out here, the armed & locked door may solve a certain security issue, but it does create other serious safety issues. Can anyone confirm for sure that LH/4U does not require a C/C in the cockpit when a pilot vacate?? |
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