lavdumper.......well mate .I dont want to say that you are the "typical yank"...but it sounds like to me,that when you were a little boy,..if you didnt get your own way,you picked up your ball and ran home crying,..sounds familiar in this situation...the "facts" as you call it are still to my knowledge being gathered,get a reality check,you yanks are as gulity as anybody,..just look at the cockups of recent concerning your military....bottom line.....when you mess with the bull...you have to take the horns once in a while......

Pakeha-boy,

Very intelligent response. It's great to see that this forum can display intelligent, logical discussions devoid of childish responses.

No, your "boyhood" analogy does not apply in this case. However, I can think of a similar one that does apply - a schoolyard bully tries to push a defenseless, slow fat kid around because he, himself, is slimmer, faster, better equipped (maybe he has a gun with him) and is more cocky. Given his cocky nature, he goes too far and ends up injuring the non-threatening fat kid. Is that easy enough for you to understand, Pakeha-boy - or are you just an idiot? (P3 = fat kid)

Again, it is easy for you and Icarus and others to "cloud" the issue by injecting Anti-American sentiments into this post - it's the dumb-man's approach because it is not intellectually taxing. Yeah, it's easy to slam America whenever you can't support your own argument logically. Prove to us, Pakeha-boy, just how intellectually-challenged you are and add some additional anti-American remarks...

For the last time - Wang Wei was reckless (cannot be refuted because of an "established" history) and because of his actions alone, a collision resulted causing the loss of his life. The P3 was on autopilot and had no reason to be provokative - it was leaving the area.

Pakeha-boy and Icarus - do us all a favor, leave your pedantic analogies and Anti-American sentiments at home and try to apply some logic to the situation.

Your "Yank" reference demonstrates your Anti-American views. Perhaps your country could do without some of our American foreign aide ($) or protection or military hardware or ... the list goes on. I am indifferent about being an American until I hear this type of crap.

Wang Wei was reckless and completely 100% responsible. It may have been an "accident," but his recklessness DIRECTLY contributed to the collision - that is the point. Case closed.

It is sad that the issues become personal, but really that is true about this incident from the start. It matters not one bit what the US thinks about the facts of the case; it only matters what China thinks, since their interpretation will determine their future actions. If they think they drew blood (and they have the airplane, and they have stopped the US "Spy" flights, at least temporarily) they will be more aggressive in the future. Their ambassador in Washington warned the US last week that any future reconnaisance flights would face "great danger", and from what they are saying since, that is probably true. It matters not that the US says they did not apologise: They did in spirit if not in fact, and only to recover a crew that were being treated as guests for only eleven days! Can't help but think that the priorities are wrong. My opinion, one of little importance I agree, is that the expression of "very sorry" was wrong, and although it got the crew home, it is going to cost way out of proportion in the future. I hope I am wrong.
I also take an interest in the America bashing, since even though I am not a citizen of that wonderful country, my wife and 4 children are. We often spar in the same vein, but I cannot help but notice that she is thoroughly indoctrinated by the US media, and also from her schooling there, to accept verbatim everything the corrupt (possibly the most corrupt in the world?) government tells her.
For example (and I could go on all day,but that would not be productive) Lava mentioned foreign aid. What a joke. The US gives less than 1% of GDP,way less than every other developed country, more than 60% of this goes to two countries in the Middle East, and all of it goes with strings attached. The US is famous for picking on smaller countries, by way of trade restrictions such as tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping regulations and so on, costing the smaller countries (AUS,NZ, Brazil etc) billions. They regularly dump wheat, subsidised by the US taxpayer, into markets that smaller countries rely on for their very existence, serving only to damage their allies and to gain nothing themselves. Negative foreign aid, perhaps? But the major countries, that perhaps deserve such treatment, are kow-towed to. China is only taking advantage of a weakness. Why not?
So brace yourselves for more!

Hi guys

Believe it or not guys, but I am a big fan of USA, I like americans people, and I am glad your parents landed on the Normandy beaches this morning in June 1944 ...
But I am astonished by th total lack of will to admit that USA can cockup here and there.
I know that the word "auto-critic" was heavily employed by the communists during the cold war, but it can be a good idea, from time to times to reckon his own weaknesses or failures.
NOT a single post from you yanks, gives this feeling. You are so blinded by your arrogance (which you confuse with patriotism) that you cannot imagine a different reality than the one broadcasted by CNN.
If you look back at your posts, you will read that you are basically telling exactly the same story, have seen exactly the same videotape (and therefore think you know personnaly the reckless chinese pilot) and that you are all 100 % sure of what you are believing (and not especially knowing) I totally agree that autocratic systems, with government controlled TV, and "army's always right" attitude is hopeless and dangerous ...but what about at TV like CNN which is controlled by money ? Are you sure the the CNN big boss want to talk about an American cockup ? or does he prefer to show the "evil" chinese pilot, endangering the good'ol US crew ?
You are all spitting on China , but your country is spending billions of dollars to spy on its own allies ! I am sure you know that the NSA is employing 200 000 persons on that purpose ! Of course I am not complaining of the peacekeeping attitude of USA. But won't you agree with me that ,potentiallly, a paranoïd US president, controlling TV (by money) and therefore public opinion, could well hide the truth and set up a war where he wants to ?
Remember ? when Bill Clinton was in trouble with Monica ? He dropped some bombs on innocent irakian people to distract the public from Kenneth Star's lawsuit. Doesn't it ring up a bell to you ?
Do you know that USA is killing more people, legally, than Iran ?
C'mon guys ! we are not living in a perfect world.
I am french, I am not taking any pride or shame for that, but I admit the mistakes of french army, government and whatever french cockup you can imagine. It's obviously not the case of ppruners from a so-called "civilised country" Neither do they have sense of humor.

------------------
[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"

Kifis and Icarus and the Italian sounding frenchman, an antipodean with a secret hankering to be the curator of said Chinese museum,with a plane spotting anorak viewer with a Ghadafi 'green book' carrying Frenchman jostling to be in on the visit. Sorry guys the PROC hero's exhibit is still to be dredged up from whence it fell. We do have his email adress somwhere though. I think he got close enough for it to be read.
Pity about his flying skills they apparently didn't live up to his own heroic expectations, his moment of truth would seem to have been arrived at in the air where he became alive to their limitations,if only briefly.

Folks, this one just isn't going away, is it?

I'd like to make some comments -- probably too long.

There is deep emotion on both sides, and although you know by my posts here and on the original thread which I started about the downing of the EP-3, there rapidly appeared a special dislike for Americans in many of the postings.

Those in these posts attack America with vengeance, with one poster calling the U.S. the most corrupt government in the world. He admits he's not an American. He does not live in America. How would he know?

By my "Colonial" spelling, I guess you know by now that I am an American. Some of you may want to stop reading right now, because your bile is starting to work itself upward.

For those that want to continue, I live and work in Latvia, an Eastern European country. I don't want to get sued, nor do I want PPruNe to get sued, so let it suffice for me to say that there are a number of countries they should send American government employees, not to teach democracy and Western accounting skills, but to learn how to rip off their own people. It would be an eye-opener.

Just to show you how ridiculous this thread has become, I've seen anti-Americans posting reactions to a CNN story as the Gospel truth, but the moment CNN showed the videos of the Chinese interceptors within feet of a EP-3, they immediately lambasted CNN for favoring America. These same videos have been shown on mostly all world TV networks (except Chinese, North Korean and other sympathizing bedfellows). Where is the objectivity?

Fighter jocks tend to be aggressive. If they were passive, they'd be dead right away in a dog fight. However, there is a thin line drawn between being aggressive and getting the adrenalin pumped up to the point where you can't function properly or logically, anymore.

Someone mentioned that the United States is selling grain to third world countries which stymies the local growing economy because they can't compete.

So why don't they grow wheat/barley/oats -- any kind of grain -- in Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan? Quite the opposite. The U.S. and other Western countries GIVE grain to these countries FOR FREE to keep people alive, because their own corrupt system is so tribal clan oriented that it refuses to even give first aid to a rival clan. They could drill for water. Western relief agencies have and succeeded.

Humanitarian air drop planes have been shot down and shot at too many times. My hats off to these daring pilots to even think about putting their lives at risk and extending a helping hand to save these starving people.

Do we even have to get into the governments of Central and South America and most governments in Asia, the latest being border fights between Bangla Desh and India. How about those Indonesian disputes. How many have been killed there because of the warlords. Again I can go on and on.

Spying EP-3s. Also, many of you that are lambasting the U.S. don't know that much of the information gathered on these fly-bys are shared by the Americans with the British, French, Germans, Australians, New Zealanders, Japanese, Koreans... Do I need to go on? Much of this information is making, or will make, your life better in the future, it is hoped, because we need to know what the Chinese are planning for the future.

As far as your reference to the U.S. as being the aggressor, think back a few years. What swarming hordes unexpectedly crossed international boundaries (the 38th parallel) to invade Korea and tried to take the whole peninsula during the Korean War. A lot of Allied soldiers died because of that -- some of them may be your fathers -- and interestingly enough, percentage wise, Turkey suffered the highest amount of casualties. What country started a mini-war with Russia in the 60s.

And during the Cultural Revolution, there were wholesale arrests of the intelligensia and executions, just to protect a one man's idea of an autocratic and corrupt system and a farcical little "Red Book." Do you really thing the system has changed so much?

I'm not advocating breaking relations with China. Far from it. The West needs the Chinese as they need the West, because there is billions of billions of foreign currency flowing through China. If that stops, we're really in big s*it.

What I'm saying is this. Think carefully who you're backing. I think the new American administration has been handling this very carefully and very correctly. Remember Japan in the 30s and the early 40s? One country, two countries, three countries, four. And the list goes on.

"Where the hell are the Americans to help us out of this mess?" they said at that time. They came. And they probably will come again.

Latvia, thanks for that timely and well considered reality check. There seem to be far too many folks here willing to blindly accept the irrational blethrings of a criminally pariah state and instead rubbish the word of the (historically trustworthy)nation that was instrumental in ensuring the security of the free world since 1917.

"Shame, Shame, Shame"

Folks, use a little logic. Open eyes , engage brain! And think twice (if you can) before biting the hand that feeds and protects you...

Or move to China if you think they are so perfect, which might be better for us all.

Launch a B2, drop a JDAM and blow it away! Then just blame the Chinese for the loss and seek damages!

Latvia:

Concur 100%.

As I said before, many ppruners can refrain from speculating on the cause of the accidents such as GF072, the Shorts 360, SQ006, etc, but they just can't seem to be able to do it this time. PLEASE, DO NOT SPECULATE. We don't know 100% who is right and who is wrong until proven by either side.

Albert,

Sorry, but I'm probably ignorant. I missed your point in your last posting about B2s.

This won't be proven one way or the other, ever. This is modern world politics.

"You shoved me.
The hell I did.
You SOB,
You ******."

Hi guys, just the new kid in the chat.
After flying for 5 years in Asian countries, I've learned that, of all of them, the chinese, after inventing the kyte 5,000 years ago (very long ago,ok!) their aviation knowledge has evolved very slowly. Somebody has mentioned about the international laws, airmanship,etc,and the truth is that the only law is what their superiors have instructed them to do. Good airmanship is fly from A to B, don't even think of going to C,you can lose face and won't be promoted.
Mr. Kifis said that the other guys have no sense of patriotism,regarding China, I believe there is a confusion. I don't cosnsider "patriotism" to follow a bunch of dictators, with Mercedes Benz (nice communism!), repressing everyone who even "thinks" that the sistem should change,because,they say, is against the PR of China (to be read: People Repressed of China).
What I'm sure of is that I would not worship a Jet fifhter Pilot who was brought down by a P3 on autopilot.
On the other hand,What is the USA trying to do? Don't they have enough problems at home,the local people are more concerned about their problems than spying other countries. I know that there are a lot of economic interests from USA in China, but couldn't them be moved to other more grateful countries,like Africa,or even SouthAmerica and really show if the chinese can survive alone.
It has just been a thought, I'm in for the Aviation Safety.

Alright, I'll take a crack at this. BTW, I'm an American and not ashamed to be one. I'm going to take a little different tack on this.

I generally agree that the pilot at fault in the collision is most likely Wang Wei. That qualified conclusion (for me) comes from the evidence that's available from the media, particularly the videos of his past aggressive flying on previous intercepts. Whether the man in the video is Wang Wei or not is almost beside the point, because the video demonstrates a pattern of aggressive conduct engaged in by the intercepting Chinese pilots. So from a certain point of view it might even be worse if the pilot in the videos was NOT Wang Wei.

And why on earth an American pilot would "ram" another aircraft while on duty station and risk losing the intelligence package he and his colleagues had collected, risk damaging his aircraft well over a thousand miles from his base, risk the lives of his crew, and risk having to ditch or make an emergency landing on Chinese soil, is quite beyond my comprehension. In the worse case, the EP-3 might have hit the Chinese fighter accidentally, and the US pilot's only fault might have been making a mistake in manuvering.

So let's say for the sake of argument that the "real truth" of who caused the collision never becomes known with a high degree of certainty, since from a "hard facts" perpective that's really where we are now. What then do you make of the conduct of the Chinese, because I think that's really what's at issue here?

I hate to say this, but I'm fairly certain that the US is at all times gathering some degree of intelligence on every nation in the world. I'm sure that information includes military capability, economic capability, political stability, and what political "currents" or "moods" happen to be flowing in any given nation at any given time. I'm also certain that many other nations also engage in this practice to some degree or another. The central purpose for this activity, is that if your nation (like mine) is interested in playing a role in the world as a peacekeeper, then you constantly need information like this on those who might disturb the peace. To me the need for this practice is obvious.

First, it's well known that the Chinese DO NOT like the intelligence flights off their coast. The bottom line is that those flights are legal, whether the Chinese like it or not. They are concerned about Taiwan and don't like the position of the US on the Taiwan matter. To be honest the whole issue of Taiwan is a little too murky for me, so I won't pretend to understand it clearly. It is however my opinion that the Chinese have been trying to intimidate the US into stopping these flights for months. I'm also pretty sure that the flights are collecting information on military and other communications activity related to Taiwan.

Second, the Chinese reaction to the collision speaks volumes, and to me this is really the important issue. I don't think the collision was planned, but I'm convinced the Chinese saw the collision and the emergency landing as an opportunity to put pressure on the US to stop these flights. Their current threats about possible harm to future flights only deepens my conviction of this.

Third, the stated "reason" for holding the aircrew and the aircraft was to conduct an "investigation" into the cause of the collision. Hypocritically at the same time, they made Wang Wei a hero (as Communists or a nation with that background, glorify heros is normally done for political purposes), claimed the US plane rammed Wei's plane, and then demanded an apology from the US for causing the collision. Of course they did all of this while pretending to be conducting an "investigation" into the cause of the accident, as the pretense for holding the plane and crew. Give me a break.

Then when they got the apology (so they thought) they released the crew. Then when it became clear that the "apology" was not in fact an admission of guilt or cause in the collision, the Chinese were beside themselves and just couldn't understand why the US wouldn't accept the blame for the collision. I mean, how do we know the collision was our fault?

I personally think the whole affair has been an attempt by the Chinese to create an international incident so "embarrassing" to the US, that the US would be forced to stop the intelligence flights off the Chinese coast. But in reality, I think it's backfired on the Chinese.

I have more thoughts, but I'll stop here...

------------------
Safe flying to you...

I read my last post and I am sorry that I said the US govt was the most corrupt in the world. Obviously there are worse. I meant it only to the extent that they claim to be honest and are in fact typically polititians, and in that vein they are among the worst. Not necessarily corrupt, but less-than-honest.
I do live in the US, and I would love to have a discussion with interested parties about the faults and such, but this is not the place for that.
I also believe that no matter whether the P3 hit the F8 or not, the accident was the fault of the Chinese pilot, who did the intercept, and had the clear responsibility to remain clear of the intercepted airplane, no matter what maneuvers he was carrying out. It is easy to see that the F8 could have come up from below, with a reducing airspeed, and struck the wing and propeller just as the Chinese video of the damage shows. It would still be his fault and weaseling out of that is only to be expected.
I went on at length about the wheat thing (which I don't expect any American to understand) simply because Lava brought up the concept of foreign aid, and the subject is one that demonstrates how the US is out of touch with the feelings of the rest of the world. In its turn, this explains a lot of the anti-American attitudes out there, and is partly the reason for the incident in the first place.
Sorry if I brought the tone down.

bunyip,

I respect your last posting, but I can't imagine what you call "the wheat thing" has anything to do with the EP-3 incident over international waters off China?

I know I'm being sarcastic, but do you infer that the the EP-3 was attempting to dump sacks of wheat for the poor Chinese people on Hainan island. That's a little far fetched, I believe, even for the Chinese.

Look, if you want to talk about wheat -- E-mail me. I don't hold it a secret who I am.

Cheers,

Just a point folks,

I think you are confusing being anti-american and having ,what we call in France,"l'esprit critique" (critic spirit )
It's typical from US Ppruner to violently react to criticism.
I won"t be surprised to read a new thread in few days "should we ban anti-american posts from pprune ?" or whatever crap of same style ...
As many of you said, you can engage your brain and look around you.
Is your country so clean and so nice ?, no homeless people around? no racism over there ?
Do you really think that foreign politic is cleaner or troubleless ? do you really think there are the good (USA) and the evil (every other country not saying "USA is great")
When you guys are talking about Human Factors on different threads, you seem to all admit that a human error is, more likely to be the reason of a Crash or incident up there, but when an US Navy crew is involved, no matter the facts available (nearly nothing) you are all pissing on the chinese pilot; GUILTY GUILTY GULTY , 100% GUILTY !
What the f***k do you know about it ? a Video from CNN ? some clue given by the pentagon or other uncontrolled agency ?
Can't you admit it can be a combination of factors, politic and human, US and Chinese ?
I am not anti-american, neither am I a stubborn supporter of China, I am human ....and french :)

------------------
[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"

PorcoRosso,

Thank you for your post. Right off the bat, my friend, why do all French things have to be French things. What happened to "Le Hamburger," etc. OK, so that's done with, let's carry on to the substance of the story.

OK, pal, let's look at the homeless and the racism going around. You guys have a city called Mareilles. Right? Do I need to talk about the homeless or the racism that's going around. I've been there and I've seen it. Why the race riots?

Corruption. How many provicial government heads or staff have not been indicted in France over the last five years?

I'm not saying that the U.S. is clouded in a white sheet. We have our problems, too, including Monica. Your president shacks up regularly with all his national and international secrets and no one gives a sh*t in France.

Regarding the human error in the EP-3 incident, according to all the records available at this time, unless the Chinese had a gun camara going at the time and it is recoverable, the U.S. plane was flying straight and level.

You give us the "GUILTY, GUILTY GUILTY," thing. If you're a pilot, you will know that for the EP-3 to make a sudden move left/right it would take several seconds to start that move, while the interceptor could do it in in a second. So, stop right there.

To answer your last statement, yes, I believe it was a pure accident. The Chinese pilot did not want to crash into the U.S. plane, but, unfortunately, due to his misjudgement, it happened.

Latvia, where was the Rainbow Warrior sunk, Auckland or Wellington? Sure as hell wasn't international waters.

Someone said that the US is such a great place to live,
Some facts:
13% of the US live below the poverty line 10% in China.
Inflation is almost twice in the US as in China.
The chance of being a victim of violent crime is considerably greater in the US than China.

US-China trade deficit is around $53Billion (i,e, the Chinese do better out of the trade relationship). So perhaps China needs the US more than vice-versa, but that doesn;t expalin the attitudes of China to the US though does it?!

The US spends almost 25 times as much on military spending as the Chinese at $277Billion per annum!!. Which is almost 75% the total GDP of Australia!

If it was definitely the Chinese at fault here, surely the US would have irrefutable proof - CVR/FDR, other electronic information
- after all this was a heavily loaded spy-plane! They seem awful quite about what really happened for a Country that probably has all the data necessary to prove who did what to who and when; most of the data collected I assume is not just stored on the EP-3 but transmitted real-time back home (Pentagon computers etc etc).

PorcoRosso has presented you vocal and defensive Americans with some intelligent and indisputable facts. Why is it that not one of you will answer or even comment on his assertion that any nation is capable of messing things up? If individuals can't be fair and admit this is possible then what chance has your country got when it comes to honestly presenting the big picture.

KIFIS

KIFIS - "PorcoRosso has presented you vocal and defensive Americans with some intelligent and indisputable facts." I must have been reading a different posting. There was nothing intelligent nor indisputable about it. Why would any intelligent human put more trust into the rantings of a communist propaganda machine than the free press of the world? I can't imagine.

Pals

some points :

Latvia, the town in France you are talking about is Marseille, and this is the last place in France I would like to live in, But even if Racism exist here, what you call Racist riot is very rare.

Yes our Presidents have been known to release some secrets information, on purpose or not. But if I remember, a couple of weeks ago a very important person at the NSA (or CIA ?) was found to be a spy, and is responsible for 13 dead US agents here and there.

You are mentionning Monica; I tell you something, If a french President was involved in an "oral" relationship with a secretary, he could be sure to be re-elected next time !!!
As a matter of fact, few weeks before F.Mitterand died, he told he had a daughter (with a mistress), and that she was living in the Elysee (the french White House)
He was also famous for shag*ing here and there ...
About the Rainbow Warrior ....It was in Auckland, a decision taken by Mitterand (probably) and an operation prepared by Charles Hernu, a Minister in charge of Police & Intelligence...Years later it was discovered, Mr Hernu was a "red" spy since the 60's, but that's another story !

I could write for hours about all this french crap, for the simple reason it's true, and because on the road leading to the truth, honesty is the best vehicle !

Actually, I found this thread funny, because most of the posts were predictible.
The bad thing, with Pprune, is that anger is coming very quickly. I am pretty sure that if we were all around a table, somewhere, we could have a real discussion, some laughs and, why not, a constructive issue.

I have a lot of american friends, some living in Europe, and despite the fact we are not necessarily sharing the same ideas, it 's always a pleasure to debate.

BTW, Latvia, we don't say "le Hamburger", we say "LE Big-Mac" ;)

Taxsman, as I don't receive the chinese TV here in France, I don't think you can blame me for believing "Communist Propaganda"
My post referring to the Italian DC9 shot down, or the Intruder SkiCabin tragedy are well known facts from the "free world"
The closest I was from China in my life, was in a "The Phenix" a very good chinese restaurant in my town :)

And, yes, this EP 3 thing will look fantastic in the Beïjing Air Museum :)

Cheers

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[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"

[This message has been edited by PorcoRosso (edited 22 April 2001).]

Icarus,

Maybe the chinese don't want to give us back the EP-3 because it does contain the damning evidence!

How can you ask us to produce the DFDR to clear the US pilots when the chinese won't give us back the aircraft inwhich the device resides...

And in the US that ten percent living below the poverty level still have satelite TVs and and what not.

The "poverty level" in the USA is a very high standard when compared to the rest of the world. I dare say that a very small percentage of the Chinese population makes a five figure income, which is where the "poverty level" is in the USA...

But keep up the US bashing, remember to list it on your visa application as well.

Cheers
Wino

I've been reading all the bullsh*t and watching CNN and what never ceases to amaze me is that the entire news media, without fail, ALWAYS miss the chance of a real story whenever they report on an event that occurs outside their own geographical area. The US Government also missed their chance for a huge public relations coup, probably as a result of the intelligence level of the average navy intelligence officer..

Wang Wei wasn't a "Gung-ho dangerous pilot" at all. He flew too close to US aircraft because he was trying to make contact with the crew without going on the radio. Chinese hero? Only because the US Navy was too dumb to e-mail him and find out what he wanted. Now look at the mess they're in... :)

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

WINO quote:
<There is NO EXCUSE for downing an aircraft 50 mile outside of your territory>

I take it the Iran Air A300 was inside the American 50 mile zone: so
that's ok? And while we are on the subject of destroying airliners, or
lumbering spy planes, don't forget LAA Boeing 727 in the Sinai Desert,
Feb 21 1993.

Wino as you and many others readily admit to being brainwashed ex-mil
guys we would not expect to hear anything else. So your comments are not
taken seriously outside your 50nm zone, so end of story on that one. Bit
like a Democrat attending a Republican convention, he his not going to
covert the opposition to his party's line, as they are equally brainwashed.

If you and Latvia et al wish to bombard the world with your various
jingoistic statements, then I have no problems with that, I am all for
free speech. (And before you bite back I am aware that freedom of
speech is not recognized in a good many countries) But please understand
that a major portion of the world will disagree with what you (US)
think and say. So if you don't like that and are not prepared to switch
off CNN and engage your brain, then tough. The problems will continue
until WW 3 comes along, probably originated by a P3 on a spying mission.

Your nation appears to teach them young. US School children are
regularly shooting each other and their teachers. And the grown-ups say
tut!, tut! But what the American culture is failing to recognize in
these situations is that the school children are only emulating the
adults and their nation's leaders who ride rough shod around the world,
seemingly getting their own way through violence, then wonder why they
are not accepted as apple pie good guys when the worm turns.

LATVIA: As you admit to being one of the low life, you should spend a
bit of your obviously spare time to check back through many of the
threads on this site over the last few years with regard to the high
esteem a journo is held within these hallowed walls.

As you had difficulty telling an IL76 from an An124, I have doubts on
your ability to differentiate between basic aircraft types, never mind
the intricacies of individual Chinese marques.

As to photography, by clever use of telephoto lenses, considerable
distances can be foreshortened thus giving the impression that any
subject, be it a ship, dog, building, aircraft is a lot closer than it
actually is. So be very careful when viewing any photo/video media, as
it ain't always what it appears to be.

Now what would have been said if the Chinese ship under surveillance
had shot down the P3. After all if the USN can shoot down an Airbus, are
the Chinese permitted to do the same?

But accidents happen everywhere regardless of imaginary boundaries. And
there is no doubt that this was a tragic accident. Who was to blame may be
the crux of the matter as far as some people are concerned, but the
answer one way or another is irrelevant. The aircraft was spying. If it
had not have been there, then this accident would never have occurred.
As it was the P3 was spying, therefore it is fair game, be it in so
called international waters (who said that area was international?) or
outer space. And if you do engage in spying missions then you have to
accept the consequences.

SKYDRIFTER - you seem to have your head screwed on right! One or two
screws loose, but basically ok!

<The damage attests to Wei hitting the EP-3 from the
rear, at high speed. >

European TV tells a different story with the P3 running in to the
Chinese aircraft with close-ups of the damaged area clearly revealing
the direction of sustained damage as analyised by skilled accident investigators
(admittedly working from unverified video footage). But as far as many
observers are concerned, who did or did not is an irrelevance to the
wider issue.

Banana wars, now there is a subject worth debating. I bet the P3s have been
microwaving all those bent bananas for years.

Flight Safety, a refreshingly sensible and balanced post. PorcoRosso KIFIS Icarus would seem to be the red brigade in these posts supporting the Chinese point of view enthusiasticaly if a little hystericaly. Sorry guys the facts do speak for themselves. and even if One Way Wang was only trying to be friendly and give his e-mail adress he obviously failed in his primary mission which was to keep in the air.
Intel gathering is a fact of life. Respect for human rights is a fact of life in the US and not in China. A P3 is less manoeverable and slower than an F8. International airspace is a concept accepted by the majority of world nations if not by China.
The Chinese attempted imposition of their views about how life should be conducted is unacceptable to most of the outside world. It does have it's supporters as Kolsman Red Pig and Waxwings can prove but unfortunately the rest of the world tends not to agree, and that is another fact

It's deeply worrying that this whole debate seems to be dominated by people who see it as either all-black or all-white, and that in a profession which should be dominated by sensible, intelligent, thinking people, so few posts even acknowledge the possibility of their being an element of blame/culpability on both sides.

First off, let's not talk about ramming. Is anyone seriously suggesting that either pilot rammed the other aircraft in a moment of suicidal madness?

Secondly, let's acknowledge that Wang Wei flew far closer to the EP-3E than was prudent (but perhaps no closer than some pilots from the West might, in similar circumstances).

While it's interesting to speculate that he flew too close to intimidate the EP-3 crew, or to show them his E-Mail address, let's be honest and admit that there is no proof of his intent or motivation.

Let's also have the courage to admit that recce flights by EP-3s and RC-135s are legal, but at the same time extremely provocative. The USA has the inalienable right to fly them, but must also recognise that the Chinese will be provoked by them, and will do everything in their power to disrupt or stop them. It must also be recognised that there is inevitably a high risk of something going wrong - whether it be a mid-air collision, a fighter pilot loosing off an AAM, or whatever. US fighter pilots have flown very close to Soviet 'intruders' in the past, and US recon pilots have sometimes deliberately 'turned into' their escorts to force them to move off. It's a dangerous, high stakes game, and this time it ended in tragedy.

And this time, the US got its crew back - disgracefully late, but unharmed. But expecting the aircraft back may be a little bit optimistic. If the latest Russian Elint aircraft had landed at (say) Eglin after a similar incident, it might have eventually been returned (in crates!) but only after it had been minutely examined. Or it might have ended up in the petting zoo at Nellis!

Generally speaking, let's recognise that the USA is a forward-looking democracy, which has done more than most to make the World a better place, and does believe in peace, prosperity and democracy. But let's acknowledge at the same time that it has its faults, and is as prone to narrow self-interest and selfish behaviour as any nation. And let's admit that China (depsite the reforms) is an imperfect place, and one which warrants a degree of suspicion. But at the same time, let's not confuse China today with Stalinist Russia. China is not, generally speaking, expansionist (though it does obviously want to reintegrate what it sees as the renegade province of Taiwan, and it does want control of the Spratleys - like most other countries in the area). But it is not a major threat to its immediate neighbours.

So let's have some balance, please!

Icarus, what nonsense you speak. The poverty line in the U.S as in china is drawn as a percentage of average income. 99.999999999% of the chinese population would be below the U.S. poverty line the rest would be communist party officials. Less chance of being the victim of an assault in China? Not if you happen to be a girl baby instead of a boy, or a second unplanned child. Or does being drowned in a river not count as assault in your books?
I'm sorry about the rabid anti Americanism on this thread, but the rest of the world doesn't share the view that America is righteous in all occasions. The only country that supports Israel in it's illegal occupation of Palestine is the U.S.A . Why, because Jewish organisations contribute greatly to party coffers and no president will risk the money being lost. The Palestinians should take a leaf out of the Chinese's book and contribute heavily themselves and see what it can buy you.
The Chinese consider Taiwan to be part of China. Until 60 years ago it was. The U.S.A backed the nationalists in the civil war and the communists won. The nationalists retreated to Taiwan where they have been protected by American military might ever since. This is a major slap in the face to China. that is why they are upset. They consider Taiwan to be a renegade province. I lived in the U.S for years and really enjoyed it but it is fair to say that the news in the U.S is only ever presented from a U.S point of view and many Americans are confused and hurt when they see pictures of burning American flags on television. They simply don't see the anger in some parts of the world at what American policy is doing to ordinary people. That said some of the comments here are not doing much to encourage rational debate on this or any other subject. P.s you're not going to get much joy baiting the French on their corrupt system of government. they don't care, they are too busy enjoying themselves.

I just finished reading that account of the Continental Airlines rescue flight, picking up the 24 US crew and bringing them back to Guam.
The part that interests me has always been the technical one, refering to the P3 itself, and the way it was operated, since I have a very long background in P3s.
The article says, in part, that the P3s #1 prop was initially hit by the vertical stab of the F8 and badly damaged, I assume that it was then feathered by the FE with no further problems, although nothing I have read has actually said that. (and, I notice, the #1 prop is unfeathered in the photo!)
Then the F8, or parts from it, struck the nose radome, tearing it from it´s latches and falling into the sea. I also noticed that there is a fairly deep external skin dent just forward of the LH pilots forward windshield.
Also, the Captain remembers in the article, parts of the radome hit the #4 prop, although that´s a long way laterally from the nose, the P3 must have been in a fairly noticeable yaw at the time as a result of the #1 prop strike, but has not said that the #4 was shutdown, as a result.
The next part was interesting, he said that the aircraft depressurized at that time, which would have been no real problem in itself, but curious, since only the two inboard engines supply pressurized air for the aircon/press., from an EngineDrivenCompressor mounted on the reduction gearbox of each, and the system can run OK from either one. My only deduction from this is that one of the inboard leading edges, inbd. of either one of the inbd. engines, was also hit by flying debris, since that is the only place the pressure system is capable of being damaged without the FE being able to control it.
Both the EDC shutoff valves are in the outbd end of the inbd leading edge, right next to the the engine nacelle, so disconnecting or dumping the EDC involved wouldn´t solve the problem, and both the aircon packs are running all the time inflt., only way to stop them is to dump or discon. the relavent EDC, so reverse flow of the pressurized air in the cabin will happen in this case, although quite fast, not explosively!
Even though all his altitude and airspeed indications were rendered inoperative by the collision, and also his Angle of attack indication would have been made unusuable by
the turbulent airflow over the detector near the nose, adjacent to the APU exhaust door, he still had at least two INS aboard, and together with the GPS I know he would have had, he should have had speed and altitude indication.
Finally, I don´t agree at all that a ditching would have resulted in crew deaths.
The #2 prop is the only danger to a successfull ditching, it comes off and tries to get in the cabin, once it´s feathered on approach to the ditching, it,s totally suviveable.
He should never have even considered a landing in Chinese territory, and headed for the Phillipines, to ditch next to the first ship found on the way, or the extent of his fuel range, the P3 can fly quite acceptably on two engines, and does quite often in normal operations!
Cheers!

Poipose - if it is all rubbish tell that to the CIA 'cos those figures were straight out of the CIA World Fact Book.
If 99.99% (of the 10% below the poverty line I assume you mean) of Yanks would be above the Chinese poverty line why don't you send them to China then!
The US abortion figures far out-weigh the "Infanticide" in China (approx 100,000 p.a.) against 20 abortions per 1000 US Women of child bearing age which comes out at 1.84 million abortions per annum in the US!!!!
P.S.

Top Ten Reasons For Being American

1. You can have a woman president without electing her.
2. You can spell colour wrong and get away with it.
3. You can call Budweiser beer.
4. You can be a crook and still be president.
5. If you've got enough money you can get elected to do anything.
6. If you can breathe you can get a gun.
7. You get to be really obese.
8. You can play golf in the most hideous clothes ever made and nobody seems to care.
9. You get to call everyone you've never met "buddy"
10. You can think you're the greatest nation on earth.

The poverty line in the US has the poor with things like Cable TV and what not.

The democrats get the poverty line raised every year as a means to getting the minimum wage raised in the US, which is now above 5 dollars an hour. That's well above the poverty level in china which is somewhere below 5 dollars a month I think.

Yes the US military has accidents. But usually (not always) they are in warzones. The vincenzes happened while they were fighting a surface engagement. The chinese embassy was a tragic mistake, but these things happened, and we apologized for it and did what we could to make it better, including assist to the family and where applicable immediately aiding and repatriating the dead or wounded.

Lets not forget that we are usually there at someone else's request, not because we want to. The US provides aid and stability to many regions of the world.

The Japanese want us there, though they may occasionally complain when something tragic happens as it is DIRECT AID to the Japanese government so that they don't have to spend resources to protect themselves from China and other perceived threats.

All of that Balkans crap was at the request of Nato. We weren't driving it contrary to what you want to believe. The problem is that the rest of Europe has gotten to the point where it can't really defend itself or its interests, and the bosnia was a war of survival, not for bosnia but for the coutries into which the refugees were pouring.

We spent 68 BILLION dollar bombing bosnia basically to repatriate 1 or 2 million people. The price tag keeps coming in. Why? Because the neighboring countries would have collapsed under the weight of the refugees.

Governments will make mistakes. Its happens all the time! It is how the government acts in the aftermath of the event that is most telling. Because The US is so large, there will be numerically more tragedies. Our country is made up of 200-300 million humans. Humans make mistakes. When we do we apologize and do our best to rectify it. In the mean time, we are doing FAR more good around the world that goes completely un noticed, untill we stop doing it, then once again we are evil incarnate.

So Icarus, insult the USA all you want, the next time someone invades your country or God reaches down and smites you with a natural disaster, you will be first in line looking for assistance from us. You make it so easy for people to justify returning to our pre WWII Isolationism, which is fine with me. You don't seam worth my tax dollars

Cheers
Wino


PS. A USA abortion (the numbers of which you way overstate btw) is a woman's CHOICE. Whether you agree with them or not, it is about a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases. It is not the US government coming in a ripping her child which she wants from her body as it is in China. Apples and oranges dude, but everyone sees it, and I am just pointing out the obvious to you.

Maybe a few forced surgical procedures on you would fix ya.


[This message has been edited by Wino (edited 23 April 2001).]

For those of you who objected to my statements in the very first post on this subject please re-read the excellent post by Jonno on some of the technical aspects of flying the P-3 .Then try and take on board the fact that this aircraft was still flyable. At least it was worth a go. Isn’t the crew made up of military people and if it is don’t they know what they are playing at ? It was not a Sunday afternoon joy flight and for my money I think they should have tried just a little harder. All along I wondered why that No. 1 propeller was not feathered and I am still wondering.

Wino,
At last someone admits governments make mistakes. This whole business is a sad affair and if the P-3 had not been there none of it would have happened.

KIFIS

PorcoRosso,

I would like to know if you are or were a military pilot? The reason I ask is that your post display a certain lack of knowledge of how the military works. Any military pilot will tell you the main goal on any military mission isn't that one doesn't get killed, its "Please don't let me F#*k up!!! I assure you an EP-3 pilot was not thinking about ramming an armed fighter so he could paint some red stars on his cockpit...If you flew for the military you would know this....Instead you spout trash from your mouth on subjects you really dont understand...By the way If France had all the different races living side by side like the US I'm sure some problems would occur, its just human nature unfortunatley.

Whine-O, the figures are correct, check the web and if you can be bothered don't publicly state they are wrong.
When it is my time to die, whatever the circumstances, I will face it without any trepidation at all for I have no fear of such; and the thought of calling for the US (for help or anything else for that matter) would be the farthest thing from my mind.
But one thing does now bother me, perhaps YOU will now be the last thought in my head as I remember your post and chuckle.

Good post Jonno!

[This message has been edited by smith (edited 23 April 2001).]

Icarus

"Check the web"


Okay, my website says the USA is the true EDEN and thus you are wrong... Other websites say the holocaust never happened either. I guess those are right too.


What Pat Robertson says on his website must be taken with a huge grain of salt. Since Abortion is really prevelant and state sponsored in Europe I guess the whole world is evil.

So how many of those USA abortions were forced by the US goverment?

Thppppppppbt <bronx cheer>

Kifis,

In this instance, flying the p-3 was not the mistake. The mistake was made by Wong Wei when he hit the p-3 as an agent of the Chinese government. How the Chinese acted in the aftermath is what I find abysmal, and not worthy of a "partner"...


Wino

[This message has been edited by Wino (edited 23 April 2001).]

Man, what a load of anti-American gibberish.

You know, there is a growing sentiment here in the U.S. to just pull out of world affairs and let all the other countries fight it out amongst themselves.

No more foreign aid.

No more mutual defense treaties.

No more juggling between antagonists so as to keep the peace.

No more being blamed for all the world's problems, most of which got their start before we were even a nation.

You guys all hate America, or are you just jealous? I wonder how long Western Europe would have lasted after World War II had it not been for the evil, vile and wretched U.S. and it's nuclear umbrella protecting all you morons from the Soviet Union? You couldn't swat flies off your ass. Your infrastructure was in ruins. Your economic system was in shambles. Your agricultural output was insufficient, I could go on and on, but what's the point, you America haters won't get it anyway.

All I've got to say is thank God for the Marshal Plan and the U.S. taxpayer, otherwise you idiots would still be living in a pile of rubble and hitting each other over the head with sticks. Sure enough, just like my old grandfather used to say, when you give you time, effort and money away, the recipient will just resent you and blame you for all his/her problems. TRUE STATEMENT!

For most of my adult life I have supported U.S. engagement in world affairs, as a stabilizing influence if nothing else. Now, after reading first hand all the anti-American diatribe here on "The Prune" I can honestly say that I agree with you all that America should just butt-out and leave you all to your own devices. My tax bill would be cut in half.

One other thing. I have never been anti-anywhere. I have always thought that other peoples and countries were different and good and viable and worthwhile. I've always wanted to go overseas and see where my ancestors came from.

Now I know why they left. You guys are just a bunch of arguementative incoherent assholes who can't get along with anybody, and I think we should just nuke you back to the stone age and be done with the lot of you!

Kilo Mike Alpha, and have a good day.

I can't help it. I love America and the people who live there (I married a wonderful girl from Kansas, and no I do not have or want a Green Card), but it is infuriating that they will not open their eyes. Why does the world seem to hate them? Or at least their policies?

Mach says "what about the foriegn aid? His taxes would go down if that was to stop!"

But the US gives the least foreign aid of all developed countries! (per capita) Most to Israel and Saudi Arabia. Very very little gets to help those who need it, and when it is given it is in the form of guns and bombs. Or they will dump a load of wheat (or whatever) into the market, selling it at subsidised prices (subsidised by the taxpayer!) to destroy the normal trade arrangements and make the dealers rich without helping those who need help. When the US pays their UN dues, and gets on board with the rest of the world, then they can brag.

Taxes? The Americans pay one of the highest taxes in the world, counting their multitude of taxes due to the feds, the State, the County, the City etc, and including the Payroll taxes, Sales Taxes, Gas, electricity, telephone, road tax and so on and so on. But what do they get for all that compared with other developed nations? Very little. I don't think that you would see a drop in your tax if the US stopped the piddling little bit of foreign aid they pay (less than 1% of GDP).

Mutual Defence? Have you seen the treaties, Mach? They are all written so that the US can assist a country under attack if it deems it necessary. There is no trigger. The treaties do not obligate the US to do anything, and everyone but the American public understands this. Nothing has changed since the last big war, when the US came in to help (to win according to the US) only when it suited themselves to do so. Never mind the treaties.

Juggling to keep peace? With your President siding openly with one side or the other? Supporting dictators only because they are not Socialists? (funny, that, since the US is so close to being Socialist itself). Getting involved by bombing milk factories when the Pres gets caught with his pants down?

Blamed for all the world's problems? No, I don't think that is true. Blame yourselves maybe. Help out? Sure, and don't forget that the US needs help once in a while too.

I think the US gets too much bad press in the rest of the world, and other countries are too-eager to respond with criticism. The good that the US does far outweighs its mistakes. The world would indeed be worse off without them. But the ignorance and arrogance of the US, especially as presented by their government and press, makes it hard for even those who do respect and care for them to hold back. It is like dealing with a teenage daughter; she can be so outrageous and stupid at times, but still you have to love her.

How does this impact on the China situation? Read the press reports, available on the web, to get the story as to how the US and China have been sparring for a long time, over human rights, Taiwan, espionage, illegal immigration, trade and such. You will not find it on CNN, or read it in the USA Today. But until you know the facts, how can you have an informed opinion?

I am not trying to dump on the US, but it is relevant to what has happened, and to what will happen again if the cycle is not broken. The US can be a full partner in the world, it can pull its weight and get the respect it wants. But it is up to the US.

Whine-O, I thought some time ago you said you were getting tired, seems not.
Anyway, all these figures come from Official American Authority (CIA, CNN, Statistics office etc.), now they wouldn't be lying, would they? They are American afterall!

I'm beginning to wonder if you are related to my dog, she always has to have the last word (bark) too!

It's been a little while and the posts are piling up. Time to reply.

It seems to me that some of you America-bashers are saying, "We like Americans. Many of our friends are Americans. We live or visit in the United States. We really enjoy it." However, the final conclusion always is, 'WE HATE AMERICA!'"

Don't you realize that these so-called friends of yours elected the government of the U.S.

There are a lot of things I don't like about America, most probably the xenophobic attitutes. It's a big country and the person living smack dab in the middle of Kansas has probably a hard time understanding where or what's going on in Holland.

The Dutchman, however, living in a country the size of Delaware, is forced to learn languages and learn to know who his neighbors are just to eeke out a living.

Now, down to specifics.

PorcoRosso,

Loved the little tiff. I hope we're straightened out now. Sorry about the spelling of that Vichy port city down there in the south of France. Had to get that one in.

Bottoms Up!

I'm not going to let you off that easy. I can't see how you can call me a jingoist? Take a look at yourself. At least I admit that there are faults in the American way of life. Your own hated journalists have asked some serious questions whether American society is cracking.

As far as having been a member of the journalism profession -- quit in 1981 -- I have nothing but praise for the organization I worked for, UPI. I didn't work for the National Enquirer, nor the Sun, nor The Globe. But, I guess to you, one sort of reporting and writing is the same as another. Check my posts again. I'm very critical of improper reporting.

That's why I personally resent you calling me a "lowlife."

I admit I got the IL76 and the AN124 confused, but if you read my posts, you will also see that I posted a correction. I'm also not afraid to give out my E-mail address, nor my web site information which also has my phone number.

This is regarding your statement that a majority of the world disagree with what the United States thinks and says. What would happen in the world if the United States had, or one day would, suddenly decide to just to go away?

In that case, if past history has anything to say, something like this might have happened:

-- Adolf Hitler Jr. (if the old man was capable) would now be Ceasar of the world.
-- Josef Stalin (or little Joe) would be the loving uncle of the world.
-- Mao Tse Tung and his follower(s) would be supreme ruler of the world.
-- Africa would be a place for hard-time prisoners and outcasts tightly controlled by any of those mentioned above.
-- Switzerland, which would be left out of the global takeover, would be the most populous country percentage-wise, because it would cost you $500 million plus just to get a residency permit.
-- Slobodan Milosevich and his followers would be very well known guns for hire by those mentioned above to put down any and all so-called "civil unrest" anywhere in the world empire.
-- There would be no Middle East countries, per se. It would be bunched into a region and the "supreme owner/ruler" would reap the benefits of desert sand and oil. There would be no Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because one step out of line and you'd all be dead.
-- The Americans, being completely isolationist, but still a province of one of the above, would erect machine gun and electric wire border posts on the Mexican border to prevent anyone from the other side coming in and taking over their MacDonald jobs. Hitler, especially, wouldn't want to mix that pure blood with Hispanics, would he?

And, by the way, Bottoms Up!, have you ever flown? Like really, flown? I started my ground training in a "Link Trainer" and I actually did my first four hours towards my license in a "Piper Cub." Have you heard of either of these old-fangled things?