I've found Iran to be very good, their ATC and domestic traffic do all communications in English and have had very few difficulties with them. Turkey tries hard, though I find the "Ankara Sisters" very annoying to listen to.
In two places I have had unusual circumstances make communicating with ATC difficult. Once in Caracas one of my tyres (tires) disintegrated on takeoff, I tried to advise ATC in English, they could not understand what I was saying, being bilingual in Spanish I explained it to them in Spanish. Before doing that I told the American Airlines on final about debris on the runway so he went around.
The next was in Beijing when I had a passenger with a heart attack, did PAN PAN and tried to explain, the controller was totally lost. A domestic Chinese flight came up on frequency with an American captain who told me he would have his Chinese copilot translate for me the details. Paramedics met us and the outcome was happy.

Give me an example of any accidents, incidents or of a near miss where a local language was directly responsible for such an event and I don't mean a Spanish person talking in a bad English... I mean a Spanish controller talking in Spanish to a Spanish pilot and the English pilot not understanding what was said in Spanish became involved in an incident or accident.

BEA Trident at Split 1976

When EASA ATC members from France and Spain are talking to their national colleagues in a language that I don't understand, I always find myself jumping in between their conversations because I can't tell when they have concluded.

When admonished I very much enjoy explaining to them exactly why I am likely to repeat the mistake, time and time again until they use English.

In Central America I was put in a hold at 6,000 ft which put me just below the tops for approach. It was not a busy airport but a pilot and controller kept talking in Spanish so about the 3rd turn in holding I got nervous about what was happening.

As I was joining the inbound hold a break in the clouds momentarily showed a plane converging with us so broke off my hold to avoid him. I was within 10 seconds of calling it a near miss thanks to the cloud break in a no radar environment.

I had a few words with him because he put our airliner in jeopardy to help his buddy land first putting him through the FAF at our holding point and altitude.

Crew did NOT maintain sterile cockpit. I wouldn't have been that difficult to figure it out. If you don't accept that foreign countries have different rules, don't fly there!

If you consider the tens of thousands of safe flights that occur in non-English airspace, the risk is very very low. It is usually grossly exaggerated by the usual French haters and monoglots. I fly into Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean and don't feel any less safe when I flew contract for a UK operator out of MAN and BHX. A little adjustment to your local environment, an open mind and common sense are more valuable then thumping on an ANO and expecting the whole world to adjust to you.

Another fact that the foreign language R/T haters like to ignore is that the military does NOT necessarily use VHF in the same airspace. Where is the outcry? Silenced by nationalism? This is what this thread is all about, n'est-ce pas?

I am actually not surprised that the finger gets usually pointed at France, after having lurked on this forum for almost fourteen years now. Little details like dual language ATC in Germany, Canada etc. gets carefully omitted by the accused. Haters are going to hate, no matter what, using the same pet argument over and over.

I wish more UK controllers would speak better Queen's English. That would make me feel much safer!

So you are one of those R/T phraseology nazis that likes to lecture everybody on the airwave, blocking other pilot's valuable time and possible safety. You have no regard for others with this selfish attitude. I hope I never share the same airspace with you!:ugh:

Squawk, easy to blame and redefine who was wrong during these accidents.

Yet in CDG, had they been using a common language (English in that instance) the chances of an accident occuring would be slim to none.

The other examples provided on this thread about Germany or Canada are different IMHO. I do not remember any instance in my time in Germany, where I was confronted to ANYONE not speaking or understanding English, even outside aviation. I Canada, some hardcore French speakers want to keep French as an official language for aviation, based on historical pride and claims of cultural identity. I have yet to meet any Canadian (or Quebecois, for that matter) that is unable to read, speak and understand English.

Now the French are a different breed. It may be more pronounced in the previous generation, but they are reluctant to speak English for a very good reason: THEY CAN'T. Listen to the majority of AF flights abroad, their level of English is appalling, I know a significant number of AF pilots who readily admit that they have a problem with English in the cockpit and many do struggle on international flights to keep up with ATC. Just read the CVR transcript of AF447, it'll show an example at work, where numerous times neither pilot understands who ATC is talking to, or misread instructions. Sad coincidence it was this particular flight, just the latest factual example I came across to read.

Now if Spain makes the move, one can hope others will follow their example, but I would not count on the French, where pride, arrogance and ignorance will prevail against common sense, improved comms with international flights, and improved safety for all.

" pride, arrogance and ignorance " :


They just develop and build airliners, jet fighters, helicopters, regional turboprops, business jets, avionics, jet engines, helicopter turbines, GA aircraft, missiles, ICBMs with MIRVs, space rockets and satellites ... (*)
and for that reason have to suffer the jealousy of those who don't, and who, although speaking the famous language as mother tongue, would like for that reason to be associated with the aerospace glory of UK and USA - got them ?)
for the illiterates : Airbuses, Rafales and Mirages, Pumas, Squirrels, Dolphins, ATR 72, Falcon 7X, CFM56 and M88, Arriel, Astazou, Robin, Exocet (!) and MICA, M51, Ariane, SPOT ...
and they do the avionics suites of Russian Sukkhois, Migs and combat helicopters ...
and they do squadron exchanges with the Russian AF
and the even sell with much pleasure big assault combat ships to the same Russians ...


Now to try to be a little bit balanced, it would not disturb me if CDG was a little bit-more English speaking - I have been translating for years to the F/Os anything of interest happening in front of us, or even behind - but that's the problem with all the big countries, like Russia, China, Brasil. Of course in Danemark or Philippines it's easier to use English.
And as said by recceguy...sometimes it's racism (how do you dare nominate Australia or others ?) and then it becomes normal and accepted french-bashing the other way...

The white elephant is back again , comes every 3-4 years in this Forum.Same arguments , same conclusions.
Quick ones for the new people here:

Fact 1 : ICAO language requirements still says that the local language of the country overflown is to be used, and in case incompatibility English language is to be used. Many attempst to change or reverse this always faileld so far.

Fact 2 ICAO is made of States, not a supra national body ordering States what to do. majority of those States wants to keep their national language, so forget ICAO changing their SARPS on that issue.

Fact 3 : there is ( unfortunately ) no scientific or statistical evidence that would suggest that it would be safer to mandate English operations everywhere. There are no recorded accident in last 60 years where language was a large contributing factor to sustain this.(*)
On the contrary the use of local language can be demonstrated to be " safer" in communications between 2 nationals using the same language. ( as it was used in Quebec in 1976 )

So in a nutshell , forget it, ICAO and even EASA will not look into this ( do not mix up AESA and EASA as the first poster here did )

(*) before posting the ususal BS on the CDG collision of Zagreb , or even Cali, it would be helpful to read again the conclusions of the 3 Accidents reports. Language did not caused , or even significantly contributed to those accidents. Language is mentioned , but not as a cause or a listed contributing factor.

Dual language ATC in germany exists only for VFR traffic where both languages may be used. For IFR traffic only english is allowed, except for emergency use of course. However, since ATCOs from all over europe work both in germany and in eurocontrol controlling german airspace any local lingo the relevant ATCO might speak should work as well.

Or perhaps most of the responses to the post you quoted were from people able to understand that Spain/Spanish was simply being used as an example to help readers grasp the concept ... :ugh:

May I add that there's a little device in the commercial aeroplane called TCAS? Makes this dual language r/t thread almost obsolete.

Pure speculation on your part. They did not maintain sterile cockpit and were chatting. Yet you shamelessly point the finger at only one person/party. Who is now being arrogant and ignorant?

Watcher, please don't bother those people with facts. They have already made up their minds.

So, to summarise the point of view shown by many here, being a definite contributory factor to accidents and being one of "the holes in the cheese" is perfectly fine just as long as you can't prove it is the biggest hole? Honestly words fail me.

That's why barriers come in. As of "definite" that is still debatable. As I previously wrote, a little adjustment to a different environment is much better than a arrogant and pompous attitude. :ugh:

And one of those barriers is insisting on a common language. In what way is insisting on a common language arrogant and pompous? That's got nothing to do with it, it's safety critical. Otherwise it wouldn't have been decided upon in the first place.

I was accused here of a lazy response, one thing that is very definitely a lazy (and totally unsubstantiated) claim is that making English a single language for R/T communications is arrogant and pompous. Any way you can back that up? Or is it a lazy and easy defence against the FACT that many in the industry are lacking the required standard in English Language Proficiency?

France.....true. I was at PPG last week when local light aircraft landing and departing were being controlled in French as the daily FR from Stansted turned out at sea and made his approach, being controlled in English. Poor visibility, low cloud, rain, one main runway.

Sure, nothing happened. So no problem, right ?

Oh dear, this old chestnut again.

So many comments from people who know so little. I endorse those posts made by Squawk7777 and ATC Watcher.

OPSO :In the event you described, no. It would seem you perhaps do not understand the basics of what ATC is supposed to do and what the PIC responsibilities are as far as separation is concerned in controlled airspace in IFR/IMC..

An unpleasant feeling to hear an aircraft being given instructions in another language you do not understand while you are performing an approach in IMC, I fully understand it, been there myself, and would agree with you. But really an unsafe or problematic situation ? No.
Done everyday all around the world to hundreds of thousands of flights without problems.

All we seem to hear on this thread is the assertion that people saying the use of one language should be mandatory "don't know what they are talking about". This is in equal parts hypocrisy, complacency and stupidity.

Instead of imploring people to give examples where foreign R/T was in use and it led directly to disaster, equally (if not more importantly) why not try to imagine an example of a scenario where a near disaster, in fact, WOULD have become an actual disaster had ATC been communicating in two different languages?

To illustrate the point, think back to the events of the Runway incursion of a Boeing 757 (United Airlines 1448) on December 6th 1999 in the thick fog at Providence, Rhode Island. For those of you unfamiliar with this case, look it up. Only a marvellous piece of judgement and situational awareness from the Captain of the departing aircraft lined up on the same runway prevented another Tenerife.

Now imagine a very similar set of circumstances only this time at an airport in France with a non French speaking crew lined up on the threshold of the active runway and ATC trying to resolve the situation in French. Sound plausible? It certainly does to me. And cue disaster as one aircraft (completely oblivious to the threat facing them due to the use of a language they don't understand) accepts clearance for takeoff right into the teeth of an aircraft still on the active runway.

The set of events that transpired in Providence are a latent threat just waiting to happen again at an airfield where multiple languages are in use. We know all about Murphy's law.

But no, I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about do I? My insistence on a single language is pure arrogance and pomposity.

You're so right. I fly out of an uncontrolled airport in France. Whenever there's an English-speaker on the frequency, I make two calls, one in each language.

And Plastic787, dig the difference between controlled and uncontrolled airports. Language chauvinism is foolish, and dangerous.

And yet again, after a clearly reasoned post highlighting the inherent dangers of multilingual R/T comms (yes within a controlled environment because that's what the original post was all about for Christ's sake) the response is to cite "language chauvinism" without any reason or substantiating evidence. I give up. It really is pathetic.

Re: CDG accident, for those who claim this event had nothing to do with using different languages, here is an extract of the report, with the recommendations from DGAC.

For my tuppence, I have just got home in time for the footie and routed through France. Whilst every controller spoke excellent English, the local traffic, and subsequent RT, was a mystery to me so my SA was zero! If it was the case that the internationally recognised language of the air was French, by virtue of my chosen profession, I would have to learn French, however; it has been agreed as English. To that end, be professional and speak English. Complain all you wish but if your argument is that you are in my country and should at least speak my language, imagine how many languages I need to learn when I route around the place! That is why there is a chosen and common language of the air. Grow up and be a professional for goodness sakes...

A couple of months ago, crossing Algeria for two hours, virtually all the trafic (ATC and local aircraft) was in french. My F/O (N/Z) started to mumble - and I knew what he was about to express.


So I shot it first : don't blame the French for speaking french ... because those guys all around us are not french ! He didn't know what to answer.

Plastic787 - as you admit in an earlier post, you have never learned a second-language - therefore you have no idea how silly your plan is that pilots and ATC should not be allowed to communicate in their own language in their own country.

This was a mid air collision over Zagreb between a BA Trident in cruise and an Inex-Adria DC9 climbing out of Split. Cause was ATC failure to co-ordinate the DC9's climb so as to maintain separation between both aircraft. As ever it took several steps for holes in cheese to line up including communication errors between mid and upper sector controllers, staff not all at their post, premature withdrawal of a 'squawk' code and a late check in on upper sector by the DC9

The language used initially was English and with a potential opportunity for Trident crew to pick up an SA prompt when the Adria flight checked as climbing towards their level and with same estimate over Zagreb VOR.

The controller only lapsed into Serbo-Croat, either by instinct or for emphasis, when finally realising potential disaster was imminent within seconds.


The accident report is here:

Rigger
 

perhaps you could expand on this comment as I understand that in France it is mandatory for communications between ground stations and French registered aircraft to be carried out in French.

This is filed I believe as a difference from ICAO and therefore it would be perfectly professional, for a French Controller to speak in French under such circumstances.

Annoying though it is, it is a requirement in law.

c7or, particularly if you live in France, speak reasonable conversational French, but little chance of passing the "aviation" French test. Hence I now gilds in UK

If the official language in aviation would be Spanish we would have much less misunderstanding because the language is more clear, especially for numbers. Much less level busts, lost comms, say agains, etc. English really isn't very suitable and therefore we have so many rules and extras in the RT.

So I say, all aviation RT should be in Spanish.

We are professional pilots, we fly in different countries and the best way for everyone to understand each other, to have good SA is for everyone to speak a common language. That language is English, it could have been any other. That's why we have to have at least ICAO level 4 english. It has nothing to do with national pride. It is what was agree by all ICAO nations.

I'm Portuguese and in Portuguese airspace you hardly ever hear us speak in Portuguese, we speak in English, why don't the spanish and french do it too.

Unfortunately the French will never do this. You need to understand the French phyche and what being "French" means. Being French means using the French language - it is what being French means. It's not living there, it's not having a French father.....it's speaking French.

The French will protect their language until the bitter end. Fighting it is a losing battle.

If the Americans spoke French then we wouldn't be having this conversation as all international (verbal) intercourse would be in French

Would english only speaking pilots boycott european airports until they speak english only be an acceptable interim solution ?

Meanwhile, level 6 spaniards, french or italian pilots may provide the workforce for channel or pond crossing :E

Now more seriously, i wonder if/when spanish will be in use (not excluding english being used simulteanouly) at some airports in US, since spanish may become the most spoken language there during this century or the next.

Btw i have no opposition to speak english only in main french airports and upper airspace, but i think we ´re more efficient on aprons or for any complex situation (safety or security) if we are allowed to use our mother tongue. It´s true btw that we ain ´t best european english speaker, but our english is still much better than most americans/brits ´ french so we shouldn ´t be so often mocked by our western cousins (scandinavians or dutch are more entitled to mock us). I am convinced english only on UAS/approach/tower at Cdg will happen within the next 10/20 years. Other main cities could take much longer, maybe 30 years until previous generations retire).

"Grow up and be a professional for goodness sakes..." , " Chauvinism" , " arrogance " etc..
Pheww!
Looks (again) like the Mirror or the Sun headlines.:hmm:

Just get a handheld radio and sit next to Malaga (or any other big Spanish) airport for a little while, you might be surprised.

For the record - I speak fluent Spanish, but what's going on there is pure madness.

The biggest issue with french on the r/t is that it seems impossible to say something in a short message. Or maybe its just the french desire to have a discussion about everything.
In any case the english transmissions in CDG are a lot shorter and more to the point.

BTW, american pilots at CDG are horrible! How about you guys pay attention and get some airport charts out!!! Instead of winding yourselves up about french r/t.
Your own version of r/t is far away from what icao thinks is acceptable anyway.

And british pilots should also try to leave some various horrible accents at home when talking over the airwaves. And realize that their long apologetic/ thank you so very much r/t stories are just annoying, blocking the frequency and that CAP whatever does not apply outside the UK.

KLM pilots need to stop putting THE before their callsign, and transavia (or is it trenseefiaa) should try less hard to talk with a fery heafy dutsch akksent. Everybody knows your dutch and for some reason no other dutch pilots do this.

German pilots need to put the callsign in the right place.

See you can come up with something about every language. Maybe we should all just speak chinese, at least the china southern could then fly direct routings instead of being vectored across every western country. (tongue in cheek)

I had a serious scare at an airport with parallel runways when ATC sent a French-speaking aircraft across in front of me (like a few hundred metres in front) to join the LH runway while I was on final for the RH. He'd spoken to me in English the whole time, to the other chap in French the whole time.

The ATCO may have had situational awareness, but I don't think the Frenchman or I did.

One more liar
 

Nobody , even the french NTSB ( which have no ATC specialist in their teams) was able to assume that the SH330 crew was on the Local frequency when T/O clearance was given to the MD80..now why this so called professional captain who was told to line up after the departing in front of him line up after a clearing landing aircraft (when the co-pilot was expressing his right understanding of the situation) ? The main cause of this accident is the arrogance of those flying drivers who don't care about ATC again their airline profit !!! Just explain why the captain suicide some month later ??
English is no more a language , it's a tool. And it's the tool of liberalism used by the american to dominate the world. You should not be proud of that !

A7700, whatever you're smoking seems to give you great bouts of paranoia and hatred of pilots.

You're entitled to you opinions, like everyone else, but this topic is not about liberalism, stupid pilots who don't care about ATC to make profit for their airline (where did that come from??), or American domination of the world. English is not a tool to exterminate you or your neighbours.

I don't know why English was elected as the common language for ICAO and commercial aviation. The only thing I can say, is that as a non-native, English has been the easiest language to learn ever. It's grammar is simpler than French, Italian, German. The average Joe can use about 200 different words in the English language and live a normal life. The French use about 1800 words and there seems never enough to express themselves.

IMHO, arguing that a single language may reduce SA at the local level is a whole lot of bull. The aviation industry agreed on other common values in the past, like the Nautical Mile, knot, foot, etc. Imagine what Europe would be like if we had to change speed-altitude-distance and (why not) time units because one feels more comfortable with the units close to home. Most would agree this would be non sense.

Pilots and other aviation professionals had to LEARN the units used in the industry. You don't get confused with your car's speed indicator in km/h even when you used NM and knots all day at work. You're not gonna ask ATC to use km/h just because you are used to that in your car since you were 18 years old.

Well, in my view, the language issue is the same. Local languages should be used only in a limited way for uncontrolled traffic, and flying clubs. Once anyone takes the training to a professional level (including ATC), just learn and use English like you learn other units specific to aviation.

As always, there are 2 sides to this story but something that always annoys me in Spain is the lack of SA, and bad English.
While the French/English thing is not optimum, agreed, the French have outstanding SA and are able to talk good English even when they have an accent.
In Spain, the centre controllers are barely OK, but most approach controllers are just horrible. Recently for decent planning:
"XXX Can we expect the full procedure or a 6 mile final ?"
"Station calling ?"
Repeated more slowly ...
"Hello, calling for weather ?"
"Disregard"

:confused:

As a French speaker, I'm going to tootle around next Saturday in my little pond-hopper and speak French around the circuit, as after all it is an ICAO language. Let us see how much chaos that causes, and how much trouble it gets me in.

Utterly ludicrous stance by the French.