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Just so you know how much data we're talking about, I did a quick check of a DFDR file I have from a six hour flight (I was investigating a strange engine anomaly on the flight). Six hour flight is a 150 meg file, or roughly 25 meg per hour (and that was an older DFDR, new models record even more). Multiply that by the thousands of airplanes in the air at any time and you're going to quickly overwhelm the available satellite resources. So $billion$ of new capability would be needed for the downlink.
I think a far better path would be improve the availability and 'findability' of the data recorders, along with some mandatory automated downlink of aircraft GPS position data. |
I recall years ago thinking the skies were so full of aircraft we could swap data packages. I have no idea how to calculate the percentage of time another aircraft would be available, given the long straight-line distances, but I bet a lot of the time it could be a cheap alternative.
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HMS Echo drifting?, i would imagine she is hunting/surveying at low speed - maybe on active rudders.....
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HMS Echo
One hour ago(18:10 UTC) she was steaming at 5.5kn / 226°
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Just so you know how much data we're talking about, I did a quick check of a DFDR file I have from a six hour flight (I was investigating a strange engine anomaly on the flight). Six hour flight is a 150 meg file, or roughly 25 meg per hour (and that was an older DFDR, new models record even more). Multiply that by the thousands of airplanes in the air at any time and you're going to quickly overwhelm the available satellite resources. So $billion$ of new capability would be needed for the downlink. Also, most of this stuff is highly optional and it's stored mainly because it can be. 20 years ago standard FDRs on aircraft like the 777 had the capacity to record 64 or 128 words per second (0.77 or 1.54 Kbps). After the expansion of the list of required parameter groups in 2002, Boeing started installing FDRs capable of 3 Kbps. |
EICAS and AIMS non-volatile memory
Lots of discussion on the thread about the CVR and the FDR. Naturally we all wish to learn what was recorded.
Yet should not the EICAS and the AIMS have their own memories? My flight manual does not go into that level of detail, but I would imagine that at the very minimum status messages and above are logged--we know that maintenance always looks at AIMS after every flight. Even the most cursory look-through reveals a ton of monitored items. I am not sure how many parameters are recorded by the FDR although I had once read it is in the hundreds now. Just thinking that AIMS might have something that the FDR does not. Any Boeing engineers on the thread who can give us a bit more granularity on this? It might very well be that these systems could be more revealing that the CVR and possibly the FDR. Hamster, I saw your post after I posted mine. Do you know the size of the parameter list? After the expansion of the list of required parameter groups in 2002, Boeing started installing FDRs capable of 3 Kbps. |
For all the talk of data dumps and CVR's uploading in real time a LOT of people seem to be missing certainly 3 issues I can immediately think of....
1. Who stores all these data dumps? I'm 100% certain that CN (to name but one) aircraft will not want their data uploaded to some data centre in Washington State or Virginia.....So you now have the issue of non centralised storage under local jurisdiction and associated variances in collection/storage rules and procedures. 2. Given 1 above how long before certain nations start to insist their data is encrypted prior to uplink and the jurisdiction issues with key release. 3. If anyone doesn't believe that all that data wouldn't be a prime target for some smart/malicious hackers you've not been following what's actually going on in the real world much. I can just imagine some inflight conversation between Captain and FO about a fault on engine 3 being released onto the web and the impact it has on Somenamelessnations National Flag Carrier business. Location data uploads make sense, some technical data uploaded makes sense, little else is really needed in 99.99999% of the time. |
Down loading real time data is just adding another layer of complexity to the systems already in place, if the DFDR/CVR batteries lasted longer then that would be a good and cheap place to start. A simple GPS tracking system installed in a location that it is not possible to locate in flight would cost no more than $1000, i have a system on my car that allows me to track its location from anywhere in the world on a simple app.
If we know where to look we can 99.9% of time find the FDR, this case is unique and unlikely to be repeated, a classic case of the holes lining up in the cheese, it could not happen over central Europe or the US This will come down to either a bizarre failure that very quickly overcame the crew, yet allowed the aircraft to keep flying for hours on a number of different headings at different levels and disabled the ACARS & transponder, or more likely in my view a deliberate act of an individual who knew how to disable these systems and program a random (non straight line/heading) into a functioning FMC, yet make no demands or leave any trail of prior intent. If the aircraft was indeed flown deliberately to what is increasing likely its final resting place then the whole event was a suicide mission, with reports of the aircraft having flown as high as FL450 i can only speculate that the intent was to overcome using hypoxia any attempt at someone eventually battering the flight deck door down with an Atlas trolley. If ? it was a member of the crew, then the loss of face had he come to his senses would probably drive the mission forward, so you climb as high as you can get the aircraft to go at max con thrust, put on your flight deck oxygen, drop the masks, after 15 minutes most are unconscious, after an hour their dead, you then re program the FMC to fly West to a waypoint then turn South with a pre programmed descent to 5000 or lower? select VNAV and set the MCP to altitude to your lower level, the aircraft will stay at the preprogrammed level until reaching your TOD point then descend until it hits the altitude restraint in the MCP and maintain that level until it runs out of fuel. In the mind of someone acting in what we would see as an illogical manner, they may well see the other passengers and crew as unfortunate collateral damage ( wrong place wrong time), but at the same time may wish to avoid avoidable casualties on the ground (this is not a terrorist act) by ensuring the aircraft would run out of fuel at sea. The culprit then takes off his oxygen mask and joins the rest of the pax and crew on this ghost ship. He may well figure that the chances of not been spotted are remote, so the they send up the fighters? so what everyone is dead the only change would be the location of the crash should they shoot it down, they fly along side, no one at home, it flying along not towards any centre of population, who will order a shoot down of a T7 with 229 people on board? In the event the Indonesian military radar controller is too busy watching match of the day or porn, even if he get a radar spot its on a civilian airway no mode C/S doing what aircraft do and assumes the civi people have it in hand? The whole thing is too deliberate to be random IMHO but guess we will know sooner or later, bizarre :ugh: |
Originally Posted by MG23
(Post 8430459)
Yes. A 10TB RAID6 with a hot spare (so three of eight disks have to fail before you lose data) costs about $5,000. That should hold all the data from all an airline's aircraft for multiple flights before you have to overwrite them.
10TB of satellite data bandwidth costs $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. And a bad guy could still turn it off. The simple solution would be to add a simple location transmitter like the ones used for cargo containers, which could report position to the airline every few minutes from its own GPS. But a bad guy could still turn it off. Soon all aircraft will be required to transmit Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Extended Projected Profile (ADS-C EPP) which is the standard ADS-C position/altitude report plus "a report containing the sequence of 1 to 128 waypoints or pseudo waypoints with associated contraints or estimates (altitude, time, speed, etc.), gross mass and estimate at Top of Descent, speed schedule, etc. " If ADS-C EPP were to be transmitted every 60 seconds that would probably be all that is needed to locate the aircraft. |
Remains from af447 were pretty well preserved by all accounts due to the depth and the temperature of the ocean.
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One lightbulb moment regarding this incident surrounds the cvr and FDR pingers.
It's a shame the pinger does not work for say 10 days, then switch off until it receives an activation ping from a search asset, say submersible. The activation ping could be coded and limited to a set frequency range. Increased complexity, yes, but problems with pinger battery life would be resolved. |
Yes INFLIMBO it is possible and I suppose some consideration will now be given to equipping aircraft with auto G release ELT or EPIRB systems. The CORPAS- SARSAT system is a world wide programme which interfaces with these to offer an international SAR service not only to shipping, aviation but even to mountain climbers and desert walkers. But there again we need to remind ourselves that this "incident" ( as we do not yet know whether it was accidental ) is unprecedented and as such cause and circumstance needs to be established before contemplating action to prevent future recurrence. At the moment the whole thing is looking like the Mary Celeste.
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As there is an undercurrent of discussion about "Future Enhanced FDR/CVR Location Capability", I am moved to ask if there is a credible, cost-effective, solution that could be globally imposed as a requirement?
Operating an airline is difficult enough. Is it reasonable, on the basis of this incident (OK, and a very few others) to demand that cost, and technical issues, be introduced? |
MPN11
Is it reasonable, on the basis of this incident (OK, and a very few others) to demand that cost, and technical issues, be introduced? Politicians are like that and the modern world wants everything to be managed and available and without doubt. This is (probably) a one-off case - but it will change the future - irrespective of whatever may eventually be found out about the flight. |
inflimbo wouldn't it be possible to mount few floatable transmitters. perhaps even relaying last known position. Unfortunately it can to be armed or disarmed by the crew; neccessary to avoid accidental discharges on the ground where people are. |
One thing which will be changed is the 30-day battery life of the ULBs:
The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has ordered that all underwater locator beacons manufactured from March 2015 have the ability to transmit for 90 days. By 2020, all 30-day beacons must be replaced, the U.S. regulator said in an e-mail. “What drove that requirement was Air France 447,” Patel said. While surface debris was found within days of the accident, locating the wreckage required robot submarines and months of searching because the black-box pingers had long since gone dead. “Malaysia Air 370 makes the second compelling case in recent memory that these 30-day batteries should have been replaced years ago and should be replaced in a more expedited basis,” said former NTSB official Goelz, who is now a senior vice president at Washington-based lobbying and consulting firm O’Neill & Associates. |
Seems to me that having a simple GPS unit that transmitted the aircraft's position every 10 minutes would go a long way toward finding a missing plane. It would certainly narrow the area in the event of a search.
If you want to improve on that, allow ATC the ability to send a signal to the GPS unit that would cause it immediately to respond with its current location. In the event of a mayday/hijack code/9-11 type incident, the ground would know exactly where the plane was. |
But above 40k they would need pressure breathing and I don't believe that is available. And don't overlook the non-hypoxic effects of decompression: having your internal gases suddenly try to triple in volume, for instance, could prove... distracting. |
Airline Safety Solutions from PPRUNE
Despite the sometimes zealous intervention of our esteemed moderators (which I applaud) we the denizens of this clearinghouse of rumour, fact and opinion have collectively provided a roadmap for improved airline safety.
Many of the most novel ideas have been deleted. So someone needs to summarize because I am sure AAIB are looking for ideas. Pilots, Cabin Crew and Mechanics and others with access to aircraft = Full dossier from all police and security agency files including NSA taps = Complete review of all social media used by these suspicious people = Analysis of all purchases in the last year with focus on flight simulation = Excessive web usage viewing pages like PPRUNE = Excessive perusal of NTSB, AAIB and other agency accident reports = Records of those who have experience marital discord or divorce = Records of any mortgage defaults or other financial blemishes = Set up hot line for anonymous reports on any of these scary people = Better checking in security for any weirdo maps = Check for reading habits, particularly Dummy's Guides to Big Jet Ditching = Watch for warning signs such as library checkout of DeMille's "MAYDAY" = Carefully check crew carry-on for suspicious item such as Wilderness Survival items: tents, energy blankets, energy bars Complete set of LOST and DVD player Parachute Waypoint lists in crayon with jerky penmanship Gold bullion or large amounts of currency.... strange currency Preflight Procedures = Preflight psychological exam and counseling for all flight and cabin crew = Check cargo for potential rotting fruit that could emit toxic fumes = Remove Lithium batteries from all carry-on goods = Send any late arriving passengers back to the start of the line = Arrest any crew member who looks at the closed circuit cameras = End waiting area announcements that creep me out such as: "We hope you will take XYZ airways to your final destination" = Bar any passengers that look funny or have strange accents = Bar any passengers that have religious symbols - might be fanatics = Carefully review any passenger carry on reading material How to Fly Big Jets by Davies... and no CPL - kick them off Stick and Rudder by Langewiesche - enhanced security interrogation Survival at Sea... kick them off Flight Documentation and SAR Features = Full time secure data link to satellites with all relevant data = Direct feed of all data to servers accessible by PPRUNE members = At least 4 external indestructible ULBs with 2 year battery life = At least 6 internal indestructible ULBs inside the cabin = At least 2 ULBs in cabin to be in custody of trusted vetted travelers = Link and support systems in titanium pilot / crew resistant case No circuit breaker, carefully filtered AC source, battery to last 20 hrs Explosion proof, maybe get the weight under 100 kg! = Star Trek Captain's log, >10 of them. Cabin crew can eject in fright = At least 20 sealable canisters in cabin with check off notes... floating = All insulating and floating materials to have orange day glow coating = Large ferrous strips in fuselage to allow effective magnetometer search = ULB with acoustic controlled release to float to service upon call = Large parachutes to save - or stop the aircraft if something fishy occurs Cabin Monitoring = For smaller aircraft one skilled monitor with flying and psych experience = Larger: 2 monitors on flight deck, one tie breaker in the cabin = Separate GPS and monitor for passengers (each with Alert Pinger to Sat) Pilot Performance Monitoring and Approval Link = Basic inflight EEG monitoring with real-time analysis On detection of subversive thoughts, instant zap, and call for alternate = Two way link to the UN Flight Input Monitoring and Control Centre = All waypoint entries review by UNFIMCC before engine start = Any waypoint changes get a similar review and carbon tax recalculation = Any sudden thrust lever movement by prior approval of ground monitor = Same for extension of flaps, slats etc Flight Deck Security = Total seal from cabin air - ditto on cargo flights But only fair to have at least 16 hour cabin oxygen for all And of course, must provide for pressure breathing above FL250 = Improve access security - at all times = Flight deck occupants food and drink tested and certified = Before takeoff: Flight deck sealed, to be opened at destination airport = Improved DVDR with separate implanted mics for all including cabin crew = Increase record time of DFDR to one year and have 3 per aircraft Improved Back Up Systems = At least 40 gallon reserve tank for the APU that cabin crew can turn on = Three RATs for any long range flights = Replace at least 20% of the wing fuel tanks with flotation material I am sorry if I missed some of the best ideas. PM me if I need to add some. And my sincere apologies if I have offended anyone with this bit of levity related to a situation that is very serious and has brought a lot of sorrow. Moderators: Thanks for the great job on a huge pile of submissions. Your call on this one... |
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