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-   -   Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost.html)

Jiving 8th Mar 2014 12:41

There is no reason he should be an Uighur, the 9-11 hijackers came from four countries and shoe-bomber Richard Reid held a British passport. Indeed it has been suggested that Islamist terrorists are now actively seeking Caucasian converts for tasks where being perceived as a Westerner is advantageous.

philipat 8th Mar 2014 12:45

@Deaf


I think this is a side track. We can't speculate as to what happened yet. Obviously something highly unusual BUT this lost Italian Passport stuff is pretty stupid to be honest. Western Governments cancel Passports immediately when lost and when issuing a new Passport. That would certainly be the case for an Italian who lost his Passport in Thailand and who needed a new Passport.
Also, an Italian travelling to China would need a Visa from a Chinese Mission, which would, first, verify the Passport and, second, LOOK AT THE APPLICANT!!


Can we shut down this blind alley??

Squawk_ident 8th Mar 2014 12:45

Visa
 
Italian citizens like others European ones do not need a visa to transit at PEK PVG or CAN, if you have a connecting flight within 24? hours. Moreover you can now get a short stay visa at some major airports in PRC upon arrival in some cases but better recheck this before leaving...

mickjoebill 8th Mar 2014 12:47


philipat "There is possibly, a very simple explanation.... Check in with stolen passport (part of a group, milling around etc etc..... Go through immigration with real one? "


There is this thing called a Boarding Card??

Is the passenger list that has been published a list of passengers who booked a flight or is it a manifest of passengers who boarded the flight?

Was there cargo or passengers on board from an earlier flight?
Where did it travel from on its previous sector and how long was it on the ground at KL?

philipat 8th Mar 2014 12:48

@fitliker


The South China sea is a long way from North Korea!!

HeathrowAirport 8th Mar 2014 12:48

Flight Plan
 
Tonights MAS370 - Same/Similar routing - different step climbs though.

PIBOS R208 IKUKO M076F290 R208 IGARI M765 BITOD N0480F330 L637 TSN N0490F350 W1 BMT W12 PCA G221 BUNTA N0480F350 A1 IKELA N0480F350 P901 IDOSI N0480F390 DCT CH DCT BEKOL K0890S1160 A461 YIN K0890S1190 A461

http://i60.tinypic.com/5a2qkz.jpg

Pucka 8th Mar 2014 12:49

Of course, we have to work around subjective event at the moment but having been on that airway last week, there is an inordinate amount of traffic on and around the airway. That's one reason why Sanya ask for offsets. I have had TCAS events with no altitude info and one at night that may have been a drone. The yanks meander with impunity to the south of Hainan so it might be anything. A sig structural or bomb..but it must have been quick since no ELT or EPIRB, even from the recorders??
The Learmount thingy with AF is :mad: the triple is completely different and as a John Deere, will not suck you into a spurious control law disparity situation, it's a belt and braces device compared to the Bus.

Capvermell 8th Mar 2014 12:50


I'm sure a Chinese visa official would know the difference between an Italian and a Chinese
So are you really trying to argue that almost uniquely among EU member states (and especially Western EU member states) that Italy has no citizens at all who hold its passports who are of Chinese Ethnic Origin???

The question you should really be asking is whether the security systems at the airport of boarding were sufficiently sophisticated that the passport used was scanned and if it was scanned then why didn't an immediate "Passport Cancelled, Stop and Detain Holder" message flash up on the immigration officer's screen? And if a big airport in Malaysia does not have any such automated systems that can scan foreign passports and make its immigration officers immediately aware of forged or cancelled documents then why not?

Having said that I have no idea at all if even a British Passport scanned at London Heathrow or another major UK airport brings up an image on the immigration officer's screen of the original bearer photo submitted to the UK Passport Authority with the passport application in case the actual physical document has subsequently had its photo amended. Even if such electronic data interchange and cross readable passport systems do now exist (post 9/11) between all major Western EU countries and say the USA and Canada I highly doubt that such advanced information interchange yet exists between EU member states and airports in Malaysia..............

Also lastly immigration checks are usually far more sophisticated inbound at an airport than outbound. For instance at London Gatwick the outbound check in the South Terminal now consists only of an automated boarding pass gate and automated photography of the passenger (who knows whether that runs any computer logic of that image against the passport image that is actually on file - I doubt it as it also works for overseas passport holders from all over the world). Although the outbound airline's staff do carry out perfunctory checks of the ticket buyer name against the passport at check in and/or the boarding gate I very much doubt that they have had any serious training in comparing real passenger faces against murky and very small passport photos. To be honest I sometimes also wonder how much training even inbound UKBA immigration officers have had in such matters and/or how much good it has done.

Global Warrior 8th Mar 2014 12:51


There is possibly, a very simple explanation.... Check in with stolen passport (part of a group, milling around etc etc..... Go through immigration with real one?

There is a thing called a boarding card
I know but i don't think I've ever been asked by immigration to show them my boarding card.. They have only ever been interested in the fact that i have documents and i haven't overstayed and that I'm not wanted for a crime.....But i haven't travelled a lot in Far East.

Global Warrior 8th Mar 2014 12:54


After what happened in a Beijing Railway Station last week, I'm sure there is a lot of interest in option 2.

Try Kunming Station, Yunnan Province. Thousands of miles away from Beijing.
Thanks.... i was told about it rather than reading/hearing about it :ugh:

philipat 8th Mar 2014 12:55

"Is the passenger list that has been published a list of passengers who booked a flight or is it a manifest of passengers who boarded the flight?"


At KUL every departing passenger, quite rightly, must produce a Passport AND BOARDING CARD before boarding a flight. Also, at Check-In, a Visa for the destination country is required. IF an Italian travelling to PEK without a Visa is checked-in, then there MUST have been evidence in an eticket or otherwise, that a connection to be made within 24 hours was made. So that should not be too difficult to trace??

andrasz 8th Mar 2014 12:55


Originally Posted by Tu.144
... the photograph on the passport used needs not be the original one...

The photo together with name and biographic details are chemically etched into the main page of all EU passports these days, they are extremely difficult to forge without having access to the actual production machinery (hence EU replacement passports are not issued by embassies any more, they have to be produced at a secure facility in he home country). I would rather assume that whoever was doing this was playing on the fact that to Asians all roundeyes look the same, just like in Europe I doubt that many immigration officiers would be able to tell apart two Asians with a broadly similar face based on a small passport photo possibly taken 6-8 years earlier.

Flying.Penguin 8th Mar 2014 12:57

The reports which suggest multiple stolen passports were used to board this flight are rather concerning. Iím not going to speculate as that helps nobody but I really hope the stolen Austrian and Italian passports on board are pure coincidence.

Eastwest Loco 8th Mar 2014 12:58

That is off Worldwidew
 
Sorry WWW but I take exception to publishing a manifest copy in a public forum when maybe all the relatives of those apparently lost may not have been advised.

It is a very pertinent point you make but I get flashbacks to PA103 when I managed to pick a hole in the TIAS system and could pull the passenger list.

Such things are best kept to ourselves.

HeathrowAirport 8th Mar 2014 12:59

Flight Plan Routing
 
http://i60.tinypic.com/5a2qkz.jpg

Fuel for that routing in a 772 is about 50-60,000kgs at least. Roughly 8 hours.

Propolis 8th Mar 2014 12:59

i do not believe that those stolen IDs are accident relevant at all but having 2 stolen Passports used for checkin on 1 aircraft does not reassure me on security on Malaysian airports.

daikilo 8th Mar 2014 13:02

Regarding the terrorist theory, whether or not the passport was false/stolen, it is not obvious how such a person could have created an explosion large enough to have knocked out all power simultaneously. That did not happen at Lockerbie, and the falling elements were large enough to have radar traces.

However, the instantaneous break-up and power-loss did happen with the Air Italy DC-9, thought to be a missile explosion close to or inside the airframe. Again, detailed examination of radar traces helped the theorists to focus in.

Ulight 8th Mar 2014 13:05

Manifest
 

Sorry WWW but I take exception to publishing a manifest copy in a public forum when maybe all the relatives of those apparently lost may not have been advised.

It is a very pertinent point you make but I get flashbacks to PA103 when I managed to pick a hole in the TIAS system and could pull the passenger list.

Such things are best kept to ourselves.

Malaysian Airlines published the manifest a while ago - http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/cont...20Manifest.pdf

grimmrad 8th Mar 2014 13:05

Italian passenger

(My quotes never work). If he says he wasn't on the plane but the manifest lists him and he reports his passport stolen - than who was on the plane using his name? And why was it not noticed that this pp was stolen, unless he did not report it which is unlikely. Can that be missed on check in or pass control in KL? Very sad indeed.

Blacksheep 8th Mar 2014 13:06

Son in Law is British born of HK parents. Refused Chinese entry because he "looked like a Tibetan".


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