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-   -   Standard of RT in USA (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/518923-standard-rt-usa.html)

ehwatezedoing 22nd Aug 2013 15:59

The anatomy of a communications breakdown in interpreting a taxi clearance from ATC by an air carrie... - NASA ASRS

Interesting incident report and its best quote in my view:

This ATC ground controller has one field he is master of; I have 65 fields I have to be master of

The Blu Riband 22nd Aug 2013 19:18


For those outside the US (and maybe those inside) this is how it works here, and works very well, thank you.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7947104/DD2.mp3
Did you intend for that to be used as an example of the efficacy of US r/t?

It is , in fact, an excellent example of poor r/t!

Very non standard and verbose - i would estimate 25% unnecessary words and how many times does he say "no delay"??
How many correct readbacks? Did the atco check any?

acroguy 22nd Aug 2013 20:01


Quote:
For those outside the US (and maybe those inside) this is how it works here, and works very well, thank you.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7947104/DD2.mp3

Did you intend for that to be used as an example of the efficacy of US r/t?

It is , in fact, an excellent example of poor r/t!

Very non standard and verbose - i would estimate 25% unnecessary words and how many times does he say "no delay"??
How many correct readbacks? Did the atco check any?
I intended it to be an example of the real world.

obgraham 22nd Aug 2013 20:56

Well, considering the references to "Eastern" and "PSA", the recording is over 25 years old.

Sounds to me like the Controller was "In Control".

The Blu Riband 22nd Aug 2013 21:12


Sounds to me like the Controller was "In Control".
sounded to me like the controller was working VERY hard and improvising
unnecessarily.

I think you've missed the point of this thread. :hmm:

Daily Dalaman Dave 22nd Aug 2013 22:07

acroguy
 
It works very well for who? You? Your compatriots? Who else matters eh on this big planet eh?

You are missing the point entirely by not taking on board the fact that its not how well it works for "native" ears that counts. Of course most native English speakers can understand and by understood no matter how gash and unprofessional the RT. However the whole point of standard phraseology is to accommodate and make life safer for EVERYBODY.

Most developed countries who don't have English as their first language make a good stab at keeping it standard (ish), yes there are local nuances and accents and some non-standardisms used, but on the whole they try. What many people outside of the US can't quite grasp is why go out of your way to sound gash when flying at home or elsewhere, when there are clear guidelines set out and being native English speakers its easier for you than most.

So many times through this thread guys from N America use the defence that it "works just fine" "we're ok with it" "yeah but we're the best" "what about you anal lot over there!" blah blah. What sort of defence is that for disregarding rules that most of the world signs up to?

It comes across as pure 100% arrogance.

For balance I've flown a lot in the US and enjoy it immensely and have utmost respect for ATC especially at the bigger hubs, I'm in no way questioning anyone's ability, I just don't understand why it's not easier for ALL to stick to the script to make it easier and SAFER as well as simpler for EVERYONE.

con-pilot 22nd Aug 2013 22:23


It comes across as pure 100% arrogance.
After reading all the arrogant comments by non-Americans in this thread, all I have to say is; 'Now that is funny and I don't care who you are'. :p

There is an old saying that this thread reminds me of; 'If ain't broke, don't fix it.'

Do please carry on. :ok:

Lord Spandex Masher 22nd Aug 2013 22:54

Woooooooosssssshhhhhh

The sound of the point going straight over the top of someone's head...again. :ugh:

obgraham 22nd Aug 2013 23:06

Summary of this thread to date:

We all do it this way. You have to do it our way.

No. We like our way.

We all got together and voted that you do it our way.

No. Your way isn't our way.

We don't like your way.

Tough. Stay away.

No. You have to do it our way.

Our way works fine.

Beside the point. Do it our way.

No.

Repeat, 430 times.

acroguy 22nd Aug 2013 23:08


Well, considering the references to "Eastern" and "PSA", the recording is over 25 years old.

Sounds to me like the Controller was "In Control".
I think that is correct as to the vintage of the recording. However, except for the "Position and Hold" being replaced by "Line up and Wait", it is identical to current practice.

Not to further inflame the discussion, but here is a well-known recording of New York Approach. You will notice that there is really no time for perfect "ICAO approved" R/T but everybody is on the same page, including the foreign carriers.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...R-Approach.mp3

beardy 23rd Aug 2013 06:48

OBGRAHAM,
You really have missed the point. The USA negotiated some of and agreed to ICAO standards, they were not imposed externally, they are applicable to domestic and international traffic. Many American pilots appear to be unaware of them and many that are aware seem to delight in ignoring in them. This gives rise to doubt, uncertainty and inefficiency for non-American pilots when flying in the USA and for American pilots outside their own airspace. All of which is avoidable by respecting international agreements. Perhaps you have the same cavalier attitude to your checklists, although I hope not.

Daily Dalaman Dave 23rd Aug 2013 09:37

Con pilot
 
Thank you for single handedly confirming all I suspected!........Frightening. :eek:

I'm glad you're unlikely to be flying me anywhere soon, your skills may not be dangerous, even your RT may not be dangerous.......your attitude however.......

YEEEEE HAHH Cowboy!

Cows getting bigger 23rd Aug 2013 13:27

I blame Hollywood. :ugh:

TheBigD 23rd Aug 2013 15:34

They are just jealous of us Yanks.
I can't believe they are not blaming the recent over runs in Asia on non standard American R/T.....
It's all right. They know more than we do. But here is the rub with that. We invented flying; we have the most complex, busiest and safest airpsace system in the world. We are the real deal, and you jealous gents (Aussies, Canucks, and Kiwi's excluded) are just but a cheap shiny import.

Cows getting bigger 23rd Aug 2013 15:48

TheBigD, sorry to wee on you breakfast cereal, but there were plenty of other manned flights before the USA was even discovered. Now, if you were to say that you invented powered flight, most of us would tend to believe you although the facts are arguable.

As for the rest, US aviation seems to have had a couple of embarrassing moments recently (bent 737 nose leg, UPS landing somewhat short and a rather surreal fire engine/survivor encounter).

Sure, everything must be absolutely fine and dandy over there.

Right, must go back to my potato famine.......... :bored:

con-pilot 23rd Aug 2013 15:50


I'm glad you're unlikely to be flying me anywhere soon
So, you are not a pilot. But yet you assume that you are an authority on ATC issues around the world. :hmm:

That sir, speaks volumes. And once again, 'That is funny and I don't care who you are.' :p

As for this snotty little comment;


YEEEEE HAHH Cowboy!
No sir, I am not a cowboy, I am a retired pilot with over 42 years of experience and have over 21,000 hours of flying time. I flew all over the world, including Great Britain many times and around the world. I never damaged an aircraft and never had a violation. One could say a perfect record.

How about you?

beardy 23rd Aug 2013 15:56

Hey BigD,

How right you are and how kind to remind us of your humility. Why then, after showing us all how it's done when you layed down the rules through ICAO, don't you do it the way you showed us? Have you forgotten already? Is that too difficult?

Daily Dalaman Dave 23rd Aug 2013 16:04

BigD
 
You really are hilarious. You "invented flying" and are basically the best so nobody else knows anything!?

Nobody (sensible) is claiming who is better/worse or who invented what. What a cringeworthy and embarrassing defence that is to completely ignore what YOUR regulatory body have signed up to (and probably helped devise).

As far as I can gather nobody is saying we know it all and you're all useless, just that there is a convention that most of the world try and stick to other than you. Why don't you stick to it? Because you guys are the best and know more than anyone so why would you need to.

Again the arrogance is breathtaking. :eek:

pigboat 23rd Aug 2013 16:07


No sir, I am not a cowboy, I am a retired pilot with over 42 years of experience and have over 21,000 hours of flying time. I flew all over the world, including Great Britain many times and around the world. I never damaged an aircraft and never had a violation. One could say a perfect record.

How about you
He drove to the airport without getting a traffic violation? ;)

beardy 23rd Aug 2013 16:20

UK to Dalaman, (which is probably Daily Dalamn's routing) has probably 5 or 6 different countries to overfly (depending on routing), each with their own language. Thank goodness all of them have heard of ICAO and understand the need for standardised RT. Otherwise the result would be horrendous.


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