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Never know
GPS memory card?
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further to that, i never flew with Peter Barnes, did you ? on that basis I would not make any assumptions on the late Mr Barnes decision making in the cockpit, and would suggest you do not either. I'm not making assumptions. I was merely astonished as to your attitude that putting a helo down in a precautionary landing seemed to be something you would never contemplate. I came to that conclusion based on your wording of your earlier statement. How else was I meant to interpret the following phrase yeah of course.. any heli can just land at will in a park in inner city london, have a smoke and wait for the weather to clear up. |
Strikes me - and I may be very naive - that the nice thing about flying a helicopter is that you can 'stop' and hang around in one place for a bit while you contact ATC / wait thirty seconds for mist to clear / check a map. Or is there a fuel penalty for hovering? Increased workload when holding station? Is it just not done to hover in a lane?
I'm still puzzled as to why the a/c seems to have been approaching from the east -when the original flightpath must surely have taken it well to the west of London - and why the pilot did not contact Battersea control. If he didn't have time to communicate, suggests he was too busy aviating? |
- I was not going to respond to your posts, but I will ask you what you would do in a helo then if you had insufficient weather conditions to continue safe flight? landing in an open space not cleared for heli operations in a built up area carries a signficant risk of errm. contact with structures, which are unlit and possibly very difficult to see. Peter Barnes was an experienced EMS Heli pilot so i'm sure had more expereince of anyone on these boards in putting a heli down in such an area. what would i do in his situation ? well i cant comment on that, because I, like non of us, know the full situational circumstances of the incident. |
Flarm
Great Idea.
Took the French gliding clubs making it obligatory in the Alps before the Brits started adopting it. The Montpellier club pooh poohed it until a foolish instructor had a mid air a couple of years ago. £120,000 plus damage all for the sake of saving £500 per machine. |
The crane was there, it was known to be there by anyone who'd read the NOTAM.
It was required to be lit at night. It was hit by a helicopter in daylight . The helicopter was flying in weather below the limits set for SVFR in the London Control Zone . Why the helicopter got into a position to collide with the crane is known to only one person, who is sadly no longer with us, and unable to tell us why. Shades of the Mull of Kintyre June 1994? Just as then, the helo carries no FDR or CVR, so we will probably never find out exactly why this happened. at least Capt Barnes doesn't have two vindictive bosses about to place all the blame squarely on him . |
Pace,
I am sure the CAA after reading your pearls of wisdom will change the regs and have all lighting removed off tall buildings like Canary Wharf??? |
Blindpew
A good point I'm sure but a little too cryptic for me.
Could we have it again please with some more flesh on it.;) |
Seriously, has anyone here used lights while flying professionally for collision avoidance? "Seriously, has anyone here used lights while flying professionally,during daylight hours, for collision avoidance?" |
Originally Posted by horsebadorties
GPS memory card
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Would stobes and lights have helped? From an aviation life from the age of five, I don't remember anyone telling me about the time they avoided an obstruction because they saw a light. Has anyone here? because a pilot doesn't yank the yoke hard into his chest, yelling 'yeehaw! missed that one!' doesn't mean he isn't responding to visual cues by your postulation then regulatory authorities the world over are wrong with regulatory practises, which have evolved of the years by way of learning through past incidents and tombstone progress, that require obstructions to flight be marked with high intensity lights and you are right. FAR-AIM Section 2 Air Navigation and Obstruction Lighting. -2-3. Obstruction Lights a. Obstructions are marked/lighted to warn airmen of their presence during daytime and nighttime conditions. They may be marked/lighted in any of the following combinations: 1. Aviation Red Obstruction Lights. Flashing aviation red beacons (20 to 40 flashes per minute) and steady burning aviation red lights during nighttime operation. Aviation orange and white paint is used for daytime marking. 2. Medium Intensity Flashing White Obstruction Lights. Medium intensity flashing white obstruction lights may be used during daytime and twilight with automatically selected reduced intensity for nighttime operation. When this system is used on structures 500 feet (153m) AGL or less in height, other methods of marking and lighting the structure may be omitted. Aviation orange and white paint is always required for daytime marking on structures exceeding 500 feet (153m) AGL. This system is not normally installed on structures less than 200 feet (61m) AGL. 3. High Intensity White Obstruction Lights.Flashing high intensity white lights during daytime with reduced intensity for twilight and nighttime operation. When this type system is used, the marking of structures with red obstruction lights and aviation orange and white paint may be omitted. 4. Dual Lighting. A combination of flashing aviation red beacons and steady burning aviation red lights for nighttime operation and flashing high intensity white lights for daytime operation. Aviation orange and white paint may be omitted. 5. Catenary Lighting. Lighted markers are available for increased night conspicuity of high-voltage (69KV or higher) transmission line catenary wires. Lighted markers provide conspicuity both day and night. b. Medium intensity omnidirectional flashing white lighting system provides conspicuity both day and night on catenary support structures. The unique sequential/simultaneous flashing light system alerts pilots of the associated catenary wires. c. High intensity flashing white lights are being used to identify some supporting structures of overhead transmission lines located across rivers, chasms, gorges, etc. These lights flash in a middle, top, lower light sequence at approximately 60 flashes per minute. The top light is normally installed near the top of the supporting structure, while the lower light indicates the approximate lower portion of the wire span. The lights are beamed towards the companion structure and identify the area of the wire span. d. High intensity flashing white lights are also employed to identify tall structures, such as chimneys and towers, as obstructions to air navigation. The lights provide a 360 degree coverage about the structure at 40 flashes per minute and consist of from one to seven levels of lights depending upon the height of the structure. Where more than one level is used the vertical banks flash simultaneously. 2-2-1. Aeronautical Light Beacons a. An aeronautical light beacon is a visual NAVAID displaying flashes of white and/or colored light to indicate the location of an airport, a heliport, a landmark, a certain point of a Federal airway in mountainous terrain, or an obstruction. The light used may be a rotating beacon or one or more flashing lights. The flashing lights may be supplemented by steady burning lights of lesser intensity. b. The color or color combination displayed by a particular beacon and/or its auxiliary lights tell whether the beacon is indicating a landing place, landmark, point of the Federal airways, or an obstruction. Coded flashes of the auxiliary lights, if employed, further identify the beacon site. would lighting in use on the crane at the time of the incident, prevented the impact ? maybe, maybe not. but the cost of a couple hundred quid light on couple hundred thousand pound crane would be prudent in preventative measures and it's onle less hole in the swiss cheese. |
"Seriously, has anyone here used lights while flying professionally,during daylight hours, for collision avoidance?" For collision with what ?? We use lights for collision purposes all the time! Flying in any low visibility high intensity lights are a must! Coming out of cloud on minimum RVR high intensity lights are a must have! Every time I get a clearance to enter and line up on go the strobes! Lights in poor visibility not just night are a way of alerting the pilot to a Hazard in all the gloom even buildings or structures which are in our airspace! Hence why the authorities regulate for their use! When you are struggling to see in the gloom especially with the thin arm of a Crane painted grey blending into the gloomy grey background intensity lighting will leap out and warn you! Sadly this poor pilot saw nothing until the bang and the seconds he had to realize that as the ground hurtled up at him. Whether PB had a mechanical problem or made a tiny error he paid a high price which could have been avoided had that arm been fitted with intensity lighting. |
ShyTorque Yes but.... what good is a strobe/light in the fog/cloud ? As I said earlier, the diffused light will do nothing to help an already disorientated pilot. Certain masts, tall pylons etc on the continent use strobe attention getters for aviators and very well they work. Couple with steady lighting they can be seen in very poor weather conditions. For what it's worth, I comment from the point of view of at least some relevant rotary wing experience. I was quite well acquainted with the sadly deceased PB and I have been doing the same job, albeit for a decade longer than himself. Within two hours of the accident I had received a number of phone calls from people within the business, checking it wasn't myself involved. I'd been in touch with a number of others, to confirm same. It was that close to home. |
I would of thought that Thames Radar (or whoever he was working) might have seen him on radar close to the obstacle- and warned him.
I'm not sayingthat they are responsible for doing that, but they are very sharp and I doubt there was much else going on especially as nothing landed at LCY until late morning due to the grotty wx. |
Two things will be known already - track and estimated speed at impact from the wreckage trail. There is a good possibility that altitude (but not height and track) could be established over the flight. |
Not quite sure who posted the snip below....
How do you know? Have you ever encountered such a situation? Certain masts, tall pylons etc on the continent use strobe attention getters for aviators and very well they work. Couple with steady lighting they can be seen in very poor weather conditions. Suppose we discovered aviation today, in 2013, with our present nav tech, would we stick lamps on all tall things? What, where, by whom, why? This problem of information overload bothers me. When lights of the kind we have today were first proscribed we had limited panels and if we were lucky a radio. Today we have something that makes an X-Box look like a toy. I don't suppose I'd challenge runway lights, VASIs or specific oddball markers but do we really need lamps all over the place? We certainly don't need them for nav (at least, not in professional aviation) and the Garmin has replaced the eyeball for much private/light aviation. If we removed 99% of the lights then what's left would stand out as something to note, not just yet another lamp. Maybe it depends on the region; in high density highly-developed regions it's one story, over rural, or desert it's another. And then if you have different rules for different circumstances, how does the pilot know what to look for? Dunno, I just put the question on the table to chew over. |
Strikes me - and I may be very naive - that the nice thing about flying a helicopter is that you can 'stop' and hang around in one place for a bit while you contact ATC / wait thirty seconds for mist to clear / check a map. Or is there a fuel penalty for hovering? Increased workload when holding station? Is it just not done to hover in a lane? I'm still puzzled as to why the a/c seems to have been approaching from the east -when the original flightpath must surely have taken it well to the west of London - and why the pilot did not contact Battersea control. If he didn't have time to communicate, suggests he was too busy aviating? The relevant part about your first statement about "stopping". Hovering at altitude (outside ground effect) needs good visual references, full concentration with both hands on the controls, and considerably more power than slow flight. It's seldom done in good weather, let alone poor visibility, if flying from A to B. Police or other observation aircraft excepted, they need to stay in one place for over-riding reasons of the task in hand. From the evidence already in the public domain, it appears that PB was flying a commonly used entry route to Battersea. He would have been directed to use that route because he would have been under radar control until he reported his position at, or in sight of, Vauxhall Bridge, a compulsory reporting point. On reaching Vauxhall Bridge, he would have been required to turn almost 90 degrees right to fly westbound along the Thames, i.e. along helicopter route H4, to reach Battersea Heliport. At that point, the normal thing is to be directed to change frequency to Battersea Tower because that is the eastern boundary of their ATZ and they control that airspace. It's not unusual to be given a maximum altitude of 1000 feet QNH at that point, because of other traffic above, descending onto the ILS at City Airport. Just south of that point is the 770 foot high (slightly less now) building/ crane. It seems to me there was nothing unusual about the circumstances leading up to the accident, apart from the deteriorating weather conditions. |
Maybe it depends on the region; in high density highly-developed regions it's one story, over rural, or desert it's another. And then if you have different rules for different circumstances, how does the pilot know what to look for? Dunno, I just put the question on the table to chew over. this isn't rocket surgery.. over decades and incidents and accidents, and like i said tombstone progression, shoving a light on an obstruction provides an additional layer of safety margin. we don need to re-invent the wheen, look at GPS mapping programming and updates, big cost solutions which can be resolved by a simple process. obstruction tough to see; shove a light on it. a tower crane costs i should think upwards of of a couple of hundred thousand pounds.. a couple of hundred quid in lighting isn't going flatline the economy. |
The relevant part about your first statement about "stopping". Hovering at altitude (outside ground effect) needs good visual references, full concentration with both hands on the controls, and considerably more power than slow flight. It's seldom done in good weather, let alone poor visibility, if flying from A to B. Police or other observation aircraft excepted, they need to stay in one place for over-riding reasons of the task in hand. i would hazard a guess, from my knowledge in fixed wing, that an airmass in which a heli is in hover can also be moving.. so while 'stationary' in the air it can be moving relative to the ground. hence the need for visual cues relative to the surrounding area. |
BOAC #256
Sounds moderately exciting, CJ - I think I might have dropped off at the nearest open space and called for a bowser.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif. 400 yds from a mast with guy wires.....hmm!! Lessons learned? - of course. |
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