Remember when in a J3 cub you could point it south and descend through an overcast with no attitude instruments using the lead error to tell you you were turning? We all knew that back then. I still know it and could do it in an airliner today. Nobody has probably heard of that in the last 20 years. Automation is great but sadly the new pilots have to do it themselves to do what us old guys knew. The airlines now don't want you to turn the autopilot off. Training costs money.

"The airlines now don't want you to turn the autopilot off. Training costs money."

I still go back to the basic premise that pax expect us to be able to solve the problem when the computers & automatics go on holiday. We are the last insurance policy to get them home safely. The sure as hell don't expect us to screw up on the automatics, either. Consider all the accidents we know about which were caused by mishandling a flying serviceable a/c. We've read about the scenarios where pitot or static air sources were lost and there was a crash, yet the a/c was flying. With calm thinking this should be manageable if the basic foundations of piloting skills were in place. For that to be the case it will take much more than the rudimentary tick in the box handling exercise in the sim every 3 years. Once those skills are lost it takes repeated practice to recover them and keep them honed.
Years ago it was very sad to see pilots of both ranks transfer from a needles & dials a/c to an EFIS one and throw away all the scans and skills learnt from the old generation a/c and become 'children of the magenta' and VNAV PTH disciples. FD followers rather than pilots in command. The FD could fly you into a stall or the ground, but they didn't notice what was going wrong. The industrial solution has been to build in more fail-safe systems and numerous back ups.
It has always been said that if you think safety is expensive then try an accident. This was related more to flight safety training than piloting skills, but I think ultimately it should be about piloting skills. It is said we are contribute to the crash in 70% or so of cases. One wonders, if piloting skills have been allowed to deteriorate and replaced with technology, has there been a secret risk/cost assessment made and the industry has knowingly chosen the path we are on? Great for the conspiracy theorists. But surely, when you look at the spate of accidents over the past 15 years there have been some worrying trends and little corrective reaction from the industry; more aghast head in hands asking 'how could they have done that?' The answer might be 'because you allowed it in your training and daily operating philosophy.' This debate has been going round in circles within the pilot community for years. When will the circle be broken and action taken?

misd- yes, I should have said 'a few degrees'. I still, however, maintain that it is difficult to read the standby pitch accurately enough and as alf says, "We should not expect pilots to pass an IRT with it and the resultant extended scan pattern".

- I still do not understand 'inability'? Are you saying that heading information in the RJ100 on both sides would be lost (leaving the standby compass out of this, which is of course, 'able' to provide an approximate heading)? Why could P2 not provide heading info?

BOAC - No, the Captains EFIS was lost, and the FO's DBI was also lost as this gets its info from IRU1. The FO had a working and correct ND and PFD, and also the standby compass. The standby horizon is clearly visible from the right seat, and can easily be used to cross check indications if there is any doubt. The captain had heading information from his DBI as this takes its feed from IRU2.

It's a shame the CVR wasn't available to the investigation, it would have added a lot of useful information.

With a loss of the FGC (Flight Guidance Computer) and thus the FTC (Flap trim compensator), the RJ becomes a 146 and unless you've flown tbe 146, or practice it regularly in the rj sim, the pitch change when going from flap 0 to flap 18 or vice versus will catch you out. A lot of immediate trim is needed to counteract it. The crew would have been distracted and not prepared for it which could account for the initial "excessive" pitch changes.

Thanks, m-j, for the clarification. Makes it worse!

BOAC, the technical aspects for the compass are as #45; however the ILS aspects might not be as clear depending on ILS course selection and EFIS display switching.
The problem of ‘inability’ revolves around the crew’s apparent failure to recall this technical detail; I surmise that this could have been due to mental workload, memory degradation with time, or that the aspect had not been taught.

mini-jumbo, re flap trim compensation, RJ vs 146.
IIRC this not quite as simple as you state. A FTC failure in the RJ reverts to the basic airframe aerodynamics; in normal manual flight 146 has a mechanical FTC system.
You may have implied this, but if not, then your description of the need to anticipate 146 trim use could be significantly greater with FTC failure.

Only the 146-300 has a flap trim compensator, it is electric. The smaller 146s have no FTC. Unless a 146 pilot has only been exposed to the 300 series they would be familiar with the trim changes required with the first stage of flap and would do it automatically. I agree that an RJ pilot with no 146-100/200 experience would get a rude shock when extending or retracting the flaps if the FTC was not working.

alf5071h - Sorry,I should have been clearer in my initial post, but I was referring to the 100/200 series.

There is no flap trim compensation on the 146-100/200 series. The 300 series does however have FTC.

Do I assume the 'DBI' is like an 'RBI'? and throughout the whole exercise P2 had a fully working IRS driven compass and P1 a working 'DBI', plus a standby 'E2B' type compass? - I cannot see how anyone could have missed those headings? The ILS display on both P2 and the standby would have worked, radar headings would have worked. Surely the only real 'problems' were a non-functioning P2 and the pitch detail on the standby AI? The trim change would have definitely caused a 'wobbler' if flying on the Standby AI. I wonder if the F/O is still a 'training' F/O..........................?

Limited panel
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alf
inability to navigate


I must be naive and behind the times, but the old fashioned use of "Needle, ball, airspeed and magnetic compass" seems to be a lost art in these modern electronically controled aircraft.

Put pilots back into a Tiger Moth and a (gosport ?) tube and have them fly this to perfection "under the hood" !:ugh:

" To a certain extent yes, but this is how modern flight ops management see the importance of hand flying - here's a verbatim extract from a FCOM near me:

"It is recommended that appropriate use of the Autoflight sytem is used throughout flight to:

- achieve maximum efficiency of aircraft operation, and
- to reduce workload and exposure to errors.

Autothrottle should be engaged throughout the flight"

BOAC - Yes, the DBI is essentially like an RBI.

All heading information with the exception of the standby compass is IRU fed.
The logic in the RJ is that under normal ops, a single failure of an IRU will not cause either pilot to lose all heading information and also allows quick verification that both IRU's are providing valid data.

IRU1 drives the LHS PFD / ND, and the RHS DBI, and IRU2 drives LHS DBI, RHS PFD / ND.

Transfer switches are fitted and used as directed by Abnormal checklists in the event of various system failures to restore data to the EFIS.

S/By Instr
 

Like Bubbers I, too, used to practise flying S/by only instruments on the 757. It was just like going back to the old steam era with the exception of the engine instruments. It made the ‘new age’ F/O’s realize that it was actually – an aeroplane! I only really needed it once and that was following an engine failure and the APU glitched on change-over, giving us nothing but blank screens. Reversion proved no problem, even for the subsequent S/E go-around. Pity about the Turn and Slip, though, it might have made it a bit easier. Had there been no previous practice .......?:sad:

The older Airbus has a crap standby Attitude indicator, it lags badly in turns and it's pitch indication can be 3 deg different to the main ADI's !!
The newer ones with the LCD ISD Displays are good in pitch but lag badly in the turns!!

Now the really new Airbus's are not fitted with DDRMI's anymore, so if all fails you'll need to look at that small crappy compass on the window......

I hope I never need to do it for real.

If you never look at your standby instruments how can you trust them if all electrical systems fail and all automation fails? It is your final backup so you should be comfortable using them alone.

Good pilots will get you to destination no matter what happens. Automation dependent pilots won't. A good example is the AF crash with full back side stick in a stall for over 3 minutes. Even if your airline doesn't require you to know how to hand fly do it anyway. Professional pilots all know how to hand fly, why shouldn't you be a professional pilot instead of a qualified pilot? Think about it. AF had two qualified pilots that couldn't hand fly.

nitpicker330

The stby AI's do NOT lag in the turns, have you heard of roll precession? Because the A/C turns at a gentle AOB in the cruise, below the roll precession cutoff limit, the stby AI will precess in the turn. It will show a minor bank on roll out but will quickly re-erect on wings level.

The DDRMI has been taken away as it was just a repeater of either ADIRU 1 or 3 so not independent, whereas the "E2B"is independent.

Fair point but FWIW given that on a lot of the shiney new toys the standby instruments are in themselves 100% "electrical" their usefulness in the event of a total electrics failure is a bit limited.

Are they still serving those swiss chocolates?they were miummy:p

Many, many years ago on Pprune, I was severely flamed for saying I could fly an airliner on limited panel. Back in 1970, even BAC 1-11s had a good old Tied gyro.

Back then we flew a lot of empty seats around, and when pax=0, cardboard and selotape would be fished out - assuming a good bloke in the RHS.

It wasn't anything special, except in the ability to do it without getting fired. Indeed, after showing the young ones the tricks, they could do it better than me.

There were a couple of time when knowing it was possible took a lot of heat out of a situation. Like, a heron down to one AH, which then breathed in soapy water and looked like a washing machine before it tumbled. Totally IMC, so flying on T&S was a fait accompli on that night.



Searches for packet of tinfoil.

That might be true according to what I read now-a-days, but back when they [FDs] first came out, I NEVER used it except in the Sim where I was told I had to use it. I was one of those that didn't like being "told what to do" by some artificial 'thing' !! Just like some of the GPS systems in cars these days: I hate hearing some person telling me where and when to turn when I already know.

Sure would be nice if pilots these days knew how to fly !!

When I was with Laker, we were taught to hand fly the DC-10 down to 100 feet with the FD on the ILS and 200 feet without it. I think we were a lot sharper in those days.

JW411:

When were those days?:)

wiggy, the standby attitude indicator had an estimated 30 minutes of use before the battery went dead, after that you were on your own. You knew that so had time to do something about it.

Indeed, some seriously nifty flying in Freddy's airplanes, but then, crews were delaying flights because of the 1,000 hour yearly limit being exceeded. One gets good with all that practice. ;)

aterpster:

Late 1970s early 1980s.

I'm with BOAC. I don't think the 757 stby AH is easy to use at all. It's bloody tiny for starters. Also not overlooking the fact that if you end up flying on that there's multiple other issues building...

Yes, that's a problem for airlines pilots, it's true thay can't fly without a F/D - but also they can't fly more than 30° of bank, and they lose control every time something is a little bit out of the picture.
I once saw a TRI going inverted at 2000 ft on the Sim after a simple engine failure, and crashing... and the chief of training watching that and saying nothing...
Airlines pilots with pure civy background (pay for training, no failure as long as money flows) have never neen very good, and those days they become less and less impressive. Everybody knows that, but it's politically incorrect to write the truth.
Fortunately, there are still a lot of ex-fighter pilots with decent manoeuvring skills and ability in the cockpits, and that's saving the day quite often. But sometimes they are not here (AF 447, all three civies on board, with thousands of hours of... watching the autopilot in cruise! or doing paperwork and radio) And when things go wrong, nobody is there to understand anything and read the instruments correctly.

Not assigning blame or leveling criticism at anybody, Im new to the Avro having spent 15 years on glass Boeings and FBW airbus, and before that heave turboprops that make that DC-9 pictured above look like the 787, and can't for the life of me understand how the Avro crew failed to identify this failure as an IR fault...the abnormal/emergency checklist has PICTURES of the failure along with the checklist...

Ouch Reinhardt, that hurts us "civy" pilots to hear :eek:

Still, there are fighter jets flown today that couldn't be hand flown without the aid of a computer and good thing us civy pilots understand MCC and don't fly commercially thinking its a one pilot aircraft!

Just saying :}

Surely you are a wind up reinhardt ?

When would an airline pilot pull more than 30 degrees bank ?

Unfortunately for heroes like you, people skills are just as vital as flying in airlines .

Reinhardt:

We had to do 45 degree bank turns in the simulator every six months, 180 degrees in each direction and without a flight director. 707, 727, DC-9, L-1011, and 767.

@Aterpster
Uuhhhh! I do not believe it! What a fright! I am petrified! No one can do such things!
Ando Rumour or not, News or not:
Merry X-mas an Happy New Year
Fly Safe
DOVE

B757: 1st command. The company was young and small and so was the training dept. I had come from a B732 and an airline with a good training dept. Thus manual no FD flying was the norm for many visual approaches. The old-school TRE on my command course considered it normal competency to fly an ILS on SBY instruments. The failure could happen and you should be able to do it. If you know pitch/power it's not difficult. In the sim session we had a sim glitch of the RMI failing, so the ILS was flown using the basic P1 compass. The F/O was very surprised it was not a major drama. Now, on B738 with a total loss of AC the captain's PFD & Map are still glowing. These are the SBY instruments, just minus the FD's. I believe this might be customer option? However, if the batteries are not up to scratch you could end up on the dark side, and a torch and tiny SBY's might be your only hope. Could you do it? Have you ever tried? Should you be able? IMHO the answer to the last is YES. The a/c is flying; there should be no reason not to keep it doing so. Sadly, because the technocrats have tried to design out the all possibilities of pilots ending up deep in the poo, training dept's and CAA's have diluted the training competency with the claim that "it'll never happen." In the world of TEM perhaps they are correct. Mother nature, human nature and mechanical gremlins will still try and line up the holes. However, the philosophy is that ever time the pilot screws up another set of restrictive SOP's is wheeled out; the a/c designers include more back-ups and fail-safe auto systems and the pilot is told not to do this or that.

It will not be long before the single pilot and the dog becomes true. That can only happen if we're allowed to take the dog food through security as all crew members have to bring their own chow these days.

aterpster:

Oh, what memories! I remember doing my FAA ATPL on the DC-10 in 1982 and we did indeed have to accomplish turns through "at least 180 degrees" with 45 degrees of bank exactly without the FD.

What you forgot to mention was that the limits were +/- 50 feet, +/- 5 knots and roll out had to be +/- 5 degrees on heading. It was a great exercise once you got used to the idea.

On the DC-10 it was possible to cheat as far as speed was concerned for switching the FD off did not remove the speed donut so that was a bit of a help!

I also forgot to mention that auto throttle was not allowed.

Yep, so did I. I followed him into the sim, (nither of us had flown a box before) I barely touched the controls. Smooth as silk, but if I hadn't been warned I might well have set up a roll in the way he did, since the sim was unrealistically oversensitive.


I, and hundreds of self-trained pilots will have a jolly good larf about that tonight.

I spent a year just sitting beside new skippers on the fairly frisky BAC 1-11. What I witnessed was the complete gamut of skill levels. Some of the worst had been ex-mil - but then, so had some of the best.

When I spent a brief time with Laker, it was like a breath of fresh air. Young self-trained skippers with skills and professionalism the likes of which I haven't seen before or since.

In the sixties, one gained a lot of experience flogging to Spain - at night - with no radar. 30degrees, 45degrees? How about seeing the horizon bar go behind the shrouds, time and time again? Seemingly endless lightning strikes - one putting a 4" hole through the wing. And I mean through. And then having to beg to re-route to avoid going through it again on the way back.

Kids of today.:rolleyes:

Some of the ex-mil blokes were utterly lost. They'd never seen a cloud, let alone the inside of a CB. Somewhat tongue in cheek, but it showed when the Transport Command blokes came along. The were generally fine. They'd seen it all before and quickly transferred their skills to the civil aviation world.

So, don't generalize. My feeling has always been those that have routinely had an empty aircraft to play with, get to be ahead of the game. Sitting in a huge computer, never having seen much go wrong? I recon there are kids on x-boxes with more hand-eye coordination.

Rant over.

Reinhardt, if you care to check out the statistics ex-military pilots are the largest cause of accidents in airline and GA crashes. Pompous self aggrandizing winder up, but hey I am cool. Just winding you up!

Loose rivets:

I thank you for your kind comments about Laker and I absolutely endorse what you say about the high standards in the company.

I was one of the ex-Transport Command captains and, having spent 16 years flying 4-engined aeroplanes through Cbs (because the aircraft wouldn't go above 15,000 feet most of the time and the weather radar was rubbish), it was a joy to fly the DC-10 which could get above or around the weather most of the time.

I think my record was eight lightning strikes in a month.

@Aterpster
I owe you an apology. I was just looking for a way to send greetings to everyone without being banned.
Anyway:
With 60° bank? (Now my pupils on the LSA meet their trail).
And one eng out ILS approach with no A/P, F/D, A/T?
Those were the days!
Fly Safe
DOVE

Unsurprised
 

Perhaps the beancounters and ginger beers can prevent these types of situations by building an aircraft with quintuple redundancy in every aspect of instrumentation, navigation equip., flight controls, hydraulics and engine control. That way all pilots can avoid those tricky situations when only raw data is available.

In the mean time what needs to be done to close the 'skill-gap' between the last generation of pilots and the new?

Ah... so my apology, yes I see you were more than adequately trained. What an adventure it used to be.

Were you allowed to have the upper button of your battle-dress loose as a testimony ?