Air France's safety record is worse than what it seems. Some accidents do not pop up in the statistics because:
1. there were no fatalities
and
2. the aircraft was not scrapped, but eventually returned to service.

You will only be able to find any information on certain incidents/accidents when you specifically know what you are looking for.

Notable examples:
- Runway overrun on 13th June 1995 at Delhi Airport
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/airfrance/1.jpg

- Tahiti aquaplaning 12th september 1993
http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/f-gita/1.jpg

- Serious incident during takeoff run at Lagos, Nigeria, 11 jan 2010
http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B...,_2010_(RE_HF)

About the AF A319 in Sofia:
I understand small mistakes but this is a HUGE mistake that could have made an accident (if small aircraft on twy H).
They were at night? So the runway lights should be clearly visible and WHITE; not blue and green as on a twy. Of course we don't know everything about this serious mishap but the result is that with a vis of 4K at night they made this HUGE mistake: it could have killed many people; remember SQ 744 in 2000 in Taipei: 83 fatalities when taking-off from a closed runway in bad weather. I heard the CVR: no taxy briefing, no correct runway identification at line-up; same with Air France that day in Sofia?

oh well..i guess the crew will just get called in for a cold coffee ,quick Gitanes and a stale croissant without jam..then a typical gallic shrug of the shoulders (you know, that one with the special facial expression )..and back to work ..no problem eh ?:cool:

Instead of the competent/incompetent argument between the skygods and others, perhaps just best to ask ourselves what we are doing to prevent such an occurrence to ourselves at a tricky airport plus any other airport.

At my company, we are verbally saying such things as Runway 36L verified prior to entering a runway and it is also a checklist call. It is also best to check lights/paint when lining up. Blue/green lights are bad. White lights are good for confirming on a runway. Yellow paint bad, white paint good. Threshold numbers the best.

Plus we use the localizer(if possible) and heading for runway confirmation on low vis takeoffs.

If it is not your SOP, I'm sure most of it can still be done by silently.

I think the problem is not comlplying with standard procedures.

Because like most of you say I am sure they had the rwy confirmation rule, they did know the white light or blue light meaning etc. etc.

The problem with Air France is that when a pilot is incompetent .. one in the other seat is too!
AF has two scheduled flights per day in Sofia
The runway is 5 years old
What should be more for don't confuse runway and taxiway ?
Answer:
Two competent pilots

Ever been to Norway?

Come on chaps, let's get rid of pointless additional checks and crap arse-covering briefings. Just do the basics and do them properly. Briefings should be very simple - a basic intent and then highlight of the BIG risks. In the past I have been bored rigid with ludicrous drivel which near enough goes down to the colour of the bloody ink and the thickness of the paper.

Less is more (from the KISS principle).

would be interesting to know what the French media make of AF nowadays , any ideas ?

Piltdown Man - with you all the way there!
My attention isn't long enough for these parroted briefs!

Jammedstab: very good point. If it's not in your SOP still do it in your head: yes.
Every available clue should be used to check and re-check you will be leaving from a runway and the correct one.:ok:

Not sure what AF are using but there are a number of aircraft and or operators that have a long checklist which gets run during line up (my current one has nine checklist items).

This is the problem with adding a check each time an error happens. You end up missing the forest for the trees. Instead of concentrating on the big picture you are trying to complete a checklist correctly.

If all the hints from the very beginning of man's conquest of air were not enough to some to recognize this to be so so untrue that it borders with pathologically romantic, then official adaptation of TEM a couple of years ago definitively should have been.

However, I would be first to admit that there are legions of PPRuNers absolutely incapable of taking off from wrong runway or taxiway.

Our airline now say taxying is a 'critical phase of flight' i.e. sterile cockpit applies - no non operational chat.

Would love to hear the cockpit tapes from AF at Sofia see how what the chat was prior to take off.............

Distractions have been proven to be one of the biggest factors in accidents/incidents.

Eg Spanair MAD jumpseating cc in cockpit and non operational chat prior to take off. Not necessarily the cause but a fact. No flaps and the rest is history.

The reference to the website 'Accident rates' includes a page 'some airlines with zero accident rates'. It doesn't include Qantas! Enough said.

Not quite enough, if I may...

Qantas has no known fatalities since 1951 (which is impressive, I grant you).
But due to its age (again, impressive), one can't hope to write "Qantas is an airline with zero accident rates" and be right about it. ;)

Check the actual website, it gives dates.

Sorry, no date limitation on the said page. This one includes dates only for airline start. ;)
Dates are on the other page, to level how rates are calculated.

Regards. Fly Qantas.

Quantas has historically flown a predominantly long haul operation with long periods of low risk cruise and significantly less exposure to the higher risk take off and landing phases of flight. It is not, therefore, surprising to find them at the better end of the league tables. Lies, damn lies and statistics etc.

and it's QANTAS.

I'm not sure, if AF has retrofitted RAAS on their fleet. Even if they did so, isn't the "on taxiway take off alert" optional?

http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/comm...-Worksheet.pdf

(see 5.4)

the aural msg ON TAXIWAY is triggered at 40 kts on the ground and they stopped at 30 kts...
the RAAS is installed on the entire fleet since a couple of years now

"Are you ready for a threat and error brief."...."Chickens can fly...and we are human, and can fly much better than chickens..HOWEVER...Chickens were meant to fly!"

Yes...lock me up if I say that before every departure..and of course, I don't.
.
Point is, from the moment we enter our cockpits, we are out of our natural environment, so we must ALL be very careful....from the 20k veteran to the .2K newbie.

Am 55, and it has never been more true than today,Sacrebleu!

Despite this incident , I think their safety Record is increasing.At least the still Did not destroy sny plane during the last 12 monthes.

Those stats for Europe.
 

I think that rather than express the fatality rates as a % of average as they do on that site, a better way is to test statistically the statement:

"They are fundamentally the same", is it possible that the differences are caused by chance?

In this case, the chances of AF being just unlucky are about 4.5% , Turkish 3%, Aeroflot about 1 in 1500! So, yes a concern.

You cannot really say much about the rest, BA,LH, Alitalia & Iberia seem to have dodged about 5 between them, but even then there is a 1 in 3 or 4 chance that they just got lucky, and if you make your own luck, let us hope they continue to do so.

RyanAir & Easy - looking good but to quote the Chinese "too soon to tell".

Still, fatalities data is a bit of a blunt instrument, I would rather deal with how often the holes nearly lined up if I had to make a meaningful ranking.

And again one more incident AF A340 Guadeloupe 2011
 

The French BEA released their final report in French (later released English version) concluding the probable cause of the serious incident was:

Inadequate monitoring of flight parameters, which resulted in the crew not noticing the autopilot had disconnected and a deviation from assigned altitude after reflex actions at the controls.

Incident: Air France A343 near Guadeloupe on Jul 22nd 2011, rapid climb and approach to stall in upset

Between January 1995 and July 2010 I flew 1.463 flights as a passenger. 998 long haul, 465 short haul using a multitude of different carriers worldwide. Only one long haul (Concorde ex JFK) and one short haul (an internal connection) were AF. I am an admitted francophile, but my instinct always steered me well clear of AF and the unprofessionalism of the cc. If I had doubts about the cc, I guess that influenced my sub conscious view of those on the fd. CDG would have been as convenient start/end point for me as LON. Just a personal view, guys.

Quote:
The pilot flying realised at that point they were at 38,000 feet and queried the pilot not flying whether they weren't assigned to FL350.
- can we believe we are reading this? What are these crews doing with the instrument panel in front of them?

BOAC : you are right but they got what they asked for :
1) PNF presses autopilot disconnect
2) PNF pull stick back 75% for 6 seconds
3) a/c climbs with 2000ft/min initially then pitch increases to 12 degr up and the vertical speed increases through 5700 feet per minute,

This not automation / Airbus computer logic that put the aircraft at 38.000 ft at Mach .66 with 12 degr nose up...

How far back counts as "Historically"?

They have operated the largest domestic and regional fleet in Australia for the last 22 years!!

Scenario "a la AF447" .. or better ... "a la Air France"
How far back counts as "Historically"?

What's most alarming after reading the report is that this happened post AF447. If you haven't read the above link, do. It makes alarming reading - scary.

Have AF actually implemented any upset recovery training program? Judging by the response of this crew the answer is no - or they were asleep during the training. Pitch of 12 degrees nose up at FL370! 6000 fpm ROC. Checklist to see if AP is engaged :ugh: Attempted PA to pax by PF during upset.......

It is difficult not to come to the conclusion that there is a serious culture/arrogance issue within AF. What's the saying..."a rotting fish stinks from the head". Does AF need a top to bottom audit like Korean had a few years back?

If this was a far eastern outfit everyone would be screaming "ban them". This is the flag carrier of the 2nd (?) most prominent country in Europe - that is really worrying.

They had already one few years ago (Rapport Colin) pointing many of the problems discussed here and in AF447 case
But .. seems it was useless ....

Bad
 

This is truly unbelievable what incompetent pilots work for air France.
No lesson whatsoever has been learned.
Something fundamental must be going wrong in this company.
If things are not changed there drastically and quickly more lives will be lost.

The question is not if they will have another crash, but when.

Can anyone enlighten us how air France works internally?

I think they should be put on the EU no fly list, as they are CLEARLY UNSAFE.

I Would certainly never fly with them

Another, again..?

In the FDR print out it looks to me that the FO nose up side stick coincides with an actual pitch down of the aircraft body angle almost perfectly. Was the PNF simply reacting instinctively to a sudden pitch down of the nose?
Standing by to be corrected.

I hear that way back in the 1960's the word on the street was:

'Take a chance ...with Air France' .

some crystal ball they had then eh?

But then again they also had BOAC: 'Better on a camel' :ouch:

Only the PNF himself is in a position to correct you. PPRuNers can only speculate. A note in the report says the airplane encountered a head-on gust of 25 kt, followed a few seconds later by an upward gust of 35 kt. The airplane probably pitched down in response to the upward gust. The PNF's instinctive reaction may well have been in response to the combination of overspeed warning, g-force and pitch-down movement.

Hazelnuts39 :
An " instinctive reaction " ? and when you are PNF ?

ATC Watcher.... If I am PNF and the aircraft manoeuvres abruptly it is definitely my instinct to correct/control by applying control inputs regardless of who is PF.
The same is true for TL movements. As a rule I normally remember who's job it is prior to doing that though. But the instinct is still there.