PPRuNe Forums - AF 321 close to stall

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)

- Rumours & News (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news-13/)

- - AF 321 close to stall (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/495368-af-321-close-stall.html)

Quote:

and the PNF shouting "Airspeed" when the trend or instant value wasn't going the right way) was a given.

Why on earth would the support pilot be "shouting"? One would have thought mandated support calls required normal talking style on the flight deck. One does not "shout" V1 or rotate, or 1000 to go and so on?:ok:

Dubious translation

Well, well, well ... already 44 posts on a thread that has started with a very dubious translation of the BEA report by The Aviation Herald.

BEA :
Incident
20/07/2012 AD Paris Charles de Gaulle(95)
Passage sous la vitesse d'évolution en approche, déclenchement de la protection grande incidence

Vol AD Bordeaux Mérignac (33) - AD Paris Charles de Gaulle (95). Lors de l'approche, pilote automatique engagé et A/THR déconnectée, l'avion passe en dessous de la vitesse
d'évolution. Le pilote automatique se déconnecte à la suite de l'activation de la protection grande incidence ''ALPHA PROT". L'équipage reprend les commandes, réajuste la
poussée et atterrit normalement.

The Aviation Herald :
Incident: Air France A321 at Paris on Jul 20th 2012, speed drops to alpha floor on approach
By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Sep 12th 2012 16:34Z, last updated Wednesday, Sep 12th 2012 16:34Z

An Air France Airbus A321-200, registration F-GTAN performing flight AF-7633 from Bordeaux to Paris Charles de Gaulle (France), was on final approach to Charles de Gaulle's runway 26L with autopilot and autothrust engaged, when autothrust disconnected and the speed decayed until the alpha floor protection activated accelerating the engines to takeoff/goaround thrust and disengaging the autopilot. The crew took control, stabilized the aircraft and continued for a safe landing on runway 26L.

The BEA reported in their weekly bulletin of Sep 11th that the autothrust system had disengaged permitting the airspeed to decay to a point where the alpha floor protection activated, disengaged the autopilot and accelerated the engines. The crew took manual control and continued the landing. The BEA is investigating the serious incident.

So it appears that autothrottle was off "A/THR déconnectée" and has NOT "disengaged" on its own and that it is not considered as a "serious incident" by BEA but just as an incident.

Quote:

So it appears that autothrottle was off "A/THR déconnectée" and has "disengaged" on its own and that it is not considered as a "serious incident" by BEA but just as an incident.

Indeed, A/THR disconnect is not a serious incident at all.

But a flight crew who allows the speed to drop almost to stall speed causes surely a "serious incident" IMHO.

BTW

AB calls it auto-thrust, not autothrottle.

Quote:

A37575, ok yes wrong choice of word there but am not sure an Airspeed prompt should always be in "normal talking style". There again when humans become maxed out the first sense the brain dumps is hearing so the monitoring pilot might, on certain occasions, have to do some sort of pattern interrupt to draw attention.

That's why I prefer autothrottles to autothrust. I can see the levers moving.

Ok, so it is the pilots who disconnected the A/THR

no problem, but then you have to mind the shop...

Wasn't there also a plane near stalling right over Paris some years ago, don't remember if it was AF as well...

Tarom 310 in 1994, similar to Interflug at Moscow in 1991.

Yes, but totally different scenario.

In both cases, like some others, a goaround was misshandled. A typical A300/310 issue (have been there, got the t-shirt).

But with AF7633 a flag carrier's crew allowed a speed decay of about 30kts during approach until the automatics slammed in.

Totally true, they let the speed decay and that needs to be explained.
And true, the automatisms saved the day by giving control of the A/C back to the pilotswho have then reacted correctly.

So maybe A. philosophy is not so bad after all :O

Quote:

the automatisms saved the day by giving control of the A/C back to the pilots

No, the automatics took control with alphafloor protection and saved the day of many souls and maybe AF at all.

I'm not trying to start Airbus V Boeing here ... but surely ... if the throttles moved (like a boeing) the crew would hold them until 80kts (or is it V1?) and would instantly recognise a power reduction

Guess it was some joint effort between the A/C and the crew !

As stated in the BEA report :

Following activation of the ALPHA PROT, autopilot disconnected. The crew took control, reajusted thrust and landed normally.

@illa

I'm not saying the philosophy of the aircraft is wrong with regards to this serious event.

All I want to point out is, a flag carrier's crew goofed it up almost to stall.

Needless to say, in a flight phase where speed is an important issue.

Boeing/Airbus, Autothrottle/Auto thrust, Alpha floor, Rad Alt etc. etc. are all completely irrelevant.
Microburst has hit the nail on the head - WHO IS WATCHING THE SHOP?
If you are so unaware of what is happening, you are in the wrong job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EcamSurprise (Post 7410470)

Also, this similiar incident happened at a uk airbus operator sometime last year apparently...

Just to clarify, the post that arrived just prior to yours stated correctly that the Thomsonfly incident at Bournemouth was in fact a B737, not an Airbus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflybob (Post 7410539)

Are these incidents not caused partly by the diminution of basic handling skills due to the increased automation and an up and coming generation of pilots who have little or no experience of hand flying jet aircraft?

Possibly, but the truth is that everyone has bad days at the office and pilots are no exception.

Quote:

I am not against use of automation but I believe this is where the root cause of the problem is. I don't blame the individuals - it is the system (or lack of it) that has produced this result.

Remember that it's not just a case of bean-counting - with increasingly crowded skies, more and more airspace is becoming RVSM, which *mandates* use of automation in order to traverse it.

Agreed entirely that there should be more focus on training handflight - especially at altitude, but the fact is that if the industry intends to continue expanding then it's going to become practically impossible to practice handflight on the line.

Quote:

...given the dumbing down of basic skills the software/techie guys will seek all sorts of solution with extra warning systems I suppose.

I can speak with some authority in saying that the "software/techie guys" only solve the problems they are presented with by a design committee that includes pilots and aeronautical engineers - they don't get to specify their own remit and never have.

Can't remember one - happy to be corrected though...

Remembered a stick and rudder hero at my previous outfit who decided to fly manually with A/P, A/T off. He flew down to level off at Circuit altitude; unfortunately he forgot he had disconnected the autothrust and totally forgot to manually add thrust. The airspeed dropped to near stall speed before the sleepy eye PM noticed the f**k up, slammed the throttles up and saved the day!

Crazy stunt pilot

Quote:

That's why I prefer autothrottles to autothrust. I can see the levers moving.

The moving thrust levers did not save the Turkish crew flying into AMS so your argument is flawed, we pilots need to monitor the "SHIP".

It must have been an interesting recovery, although there was no mention of TOGA LOCK.

Having no idea of "airbus laws" can someone briefly explain this "alpha floor" logic that they have??

Out of interest re auto thrust/throttle if a speed significantly lower (initial approach limit down to Vref) than the aircrafts current speed is selected on an approach, will the auto thrust/throttle system automatically reduce power to idle to slow the aircraft?? Or will it be a 'powered deceleration', or am I way off the mark re how this system works??

Cheers.