and the PNF shouting "Airspeed" when the trend or instant value wasn't going the right way) was a given. |
Dubious translation
Well, well, well ... already 44 posts on a thread that has started with a very dubious translation of the BEA report by The Aviation Herald.
BEA : Incident 20/07/2012 AD Paris Charles de Gaulle(95) Passage sous la vitesse d'évolution en approche, déclenchement de la protection grande incidence Vol AD Bordeaux Mérignac (33) - AD Paris Charles de Gaulle (95). Lors de l'approche, pilote automatique engagé et A/THR déconnectée, l'avion passe en dessous de la vitesse d'évolution. Le pilote automatique se déconnecte à la suite de l'activation de la protection grande incidence ''ALPHA PROT". L'équipage reprend les commandes, réajuste la poussée et atterrit normalement. The Aviation Herald : So it appears that autothrottle was off "A/THR déconnectée" and has NOT "disengaged" on its own and that it is not considered as a "serious incident" by BEA but just as an incident.Incident: Air France A321 at Paris on Jul 20th 2012, speed drops to alpha floor on approach By Simon Hradecky, created Wednesday, Sep 12th 2012 16:34Z, last updated Wednesday, Sep 12th 2012 16:34Z An Air France Airbus A321-200, registration F-GTAN performing flight AF-7633 from Bordeaux to Paris Charles de Gaulle (France), was on final approach to Charles de Gaulle's runway 26L with autopilot and autothrust engaged, when autothrust disconnected and the speed decayed until the alpha floor protection activated accelerating the engines to takeoff/goaround thrust and disengaging the autopilot. The crew took control, stabilized the aircraft and continued for a safe landing on runway 26L. The BEA reported in their weekly bulletin of Sep 11th that the autothrust system had disengaged permitting the airspeed to decay to a point where the alpha floor protection activated, disengaged the autopilot and accelerated the engines. The crew took manual control and continued the landing. The BEA is investigating the serious incident. |
So it appears that autothrottle was off "A/THR déconnectée" and has "disengaged" on its own and that it is not considered as a "serious incident" by BEA but just as an incident. But a flight crew who allows the speed to drop almost to stall speed causes surely a "serious incident" IMHO. BTW AB calls it auto-thrust, not autothrottle. |
Why on earth would the support pilot be "shouting"? One would have thought mandated support calls required normal talking style on the flight deck. One does not "shout" V1 or rotate, or 1000 to go and so on? |
That's why I prefer autothrottles to autothrust. I can see the levers moving.
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Ok, so it is the pilots who disconnected the A/THR
no problem, but then you have to mind the shop... |
Wasn't there also a plane near stalling right over Paris some years ago, don't remember if it was AF as well...
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Tarom 310 in 1994, similar to Interflug at Moscow in 1991.
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Yes, but totally different scenario.
In both cases, like some others, a goaround was misshandled. A typical A300/310 issue (have been there, got the t-shirt). But with AF7633 a flag carrier's crew allowed a speed decay of about 30kts during approach until the automatics slammed in. |
Totally true, they let the speed decay and that needs to be explained.
And true, the automatisms saved the day by giving control of the A/C back to the pilotswho have then reacted correctly. So maybe A. philosophy is not so bad after all :O |
the automatisms saved the day by giving control of the A/C back to the pilots |
I'm not trying to start Airbus V Boeing here ... but surely ... if the throttles moved (like a boeing) the crew would hold them until 80kts (or is it V1?) and would instantly recognise a power reduction
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Guess it was some joint effort between the A/C and the crew !
As stated in the BEA report : Following activation of the ALPHA PROT, autopilot disconnected. The crew took control, reajusted thrust and landed normally. |
@illa
I'm not saying the philosophy of the aircraft is wrong with regards to this serious event. All I want to point out is, a flag carrier's crew goofed it up almost to stall. Needless to say, in a flight phase where speed is an important issue. |
Boeing/Airbus, Autothrottle/Auto thrust, Alpha floor, Rad Alt etc. etc. are all completely irrelevant.
Microburst has hit the nail on the head - WHO IS WATCHING THE SHOP? If you are so unaware of what is happening, you are in the wrong job. |
Originally Posted by EcamSurprise
(Post 7410470)
Also, this similiar incident happened at a uk airbus operator sometime last year apparently...
Originally Posted by fireflybob
(Post 7410539)
Are these incidents not caused partly by the diminution of basic handling skills due to the increased automation and an up and coming generation of pilots who have little or no experience of hand flying jet aircraft?
I am not against use of automation but I believe this is where the root cause of the problem is. I don't blame the individuals - it is the system (or lack of it) that has produced this result. Agreed entirely that there should be more focus on training handflight - especially at altitude, but the fact is that if the industry intends to continue expanding then it's going to become practically impossible to practice handflight on the line. ...given the dumbing down of basic skills the software/techie guys will seek all sorts of solution with extra warning systems I suppose. |
Can't remember one - happy to be corrected though...
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Remembered a stick and rudder hero at my previous outfit who decided to fly manually with A/P, A/T off. He flew down to level off at Circuit altitude; unfortunately he forgot he had disconnected the autothrust and totally forgot to manually add thrust. The airspeed dropped to near stall speed before the sleepy eye PM noticed the f**k up, slammed the throttles up and saved the day!
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Crazy stunt pilot
That's why I prefer autothrottles to autothrust. I can see the levers moving. It must have been an interesting recovery, although there was no mention of TOGA LOCK. |
Having no idea of "airbus laws" can someone briefly explain this "alpha floor" logic that they have??
Out of interest re auto thrust/throttle if a speed significantly lower (initial approach limit down to Vref) than the aircrafts current speed is selected on an approach, will the auto thrust/throttle system automatically reduce power to idle to slow the aircraft?? Or will it be a 'powered deceleration', or am I way off the mark re how this system works?? Cheers. |
Can someone enlighten me, it's long ago that I flew that thing.
When on final approach with alpha floor active, speed should have been somewhere between VaProt & VaMax, right? I know, alpha floor is an A/THR feature, but to get a picture... |
Remembered a stick and rudder hero at my previous outfit who decided to fly manually with A/P, A/T off. He flew down to level off at Circuit altitude; unfortunately he forgot he had disconnected the autothrust and totally forgot to manually add thrust. The airspeed dropped to near stall speed before the sleepy eye PM noticed the f**k up, slammed the throttles up and saved the day! |
Close to stall
Bigmouth,
Havent read it all and not going to bash any airline but when I trained I was taught to fly airplanes and you are dead right about the trust levers.I had an instructor who used to hit me with the control lock(C152)below 500ft if my hand was not on the throttle because I had a bad habit.To this day I would buy her a drink for all that pain because she taught me a real good habit.THe basics cant be beat even in the new stuff. |
It's almost like groundhog day!
I wrote last year in the AF447 debate to wait for the next incident. The worst part of these debates is that the ever same protagonists come up with the same lame an cynical statements: "no, it has nothing to do with the AB dead stick/lever philosophy, because even the Turkish managed to dump their 737 ..... etc. blah, blah ..." How can you try to defend a design flop by pointing to morons producing an accident with another design??? With the same argument we can abolish ABS and ESP in modern cars by showing that there are some other morons who were able to crash even highly equipped cars! Such argumentation is not only puerile, but even cynical. Try for once to look at the whole issue with the following view: To my belief controls with feedback represent an additional protection in modern cockpits. Had the SFO in the left seat of AF447 had any feedback on his sidestick, he might have better realised his collegues blackout. Had the pilot of the AF321 in question had a moving throttle (that in this instance would not have moved) he might have realised the off situation earlier. To conclude my argument: I know there are two mights in my above statement. But if you look at feedback-controls through the above optic, namely as an additional protection, it makes absolutely no sense to abolish them. |
None of you have the full fact's here.. You keep your hand on the thrust levers during approach, A/THR on or off so I would be surprised if this wasn't the case with AF231.
No doubt there was a big screw up here, however I'll say it again.. This machine will damn well tell you if A/THR disconnects without any pilot input, and it will keep telling you until you do something about it. All this talk about moving throttles, sidestick etc etc is pointless.. I would be interested in knowing what Vapp they we're flying and the GW. Defintely not going to get that info here.. |
Maybe SOP's, CRM situational awarness and good monitoring might help:oh:
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Anyone know what the winds were doing..? Possible energy loss..?
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Usual caveats about SLF posting comments apply
I guess it's a good job this situation didn't happen below 500 feet?
Most dangerous phase of flight - T/O and landing. Most critical thing to staying in the air - airspeed. Professional crews with hundreds of lives in their hands keep killing themselves and others (or trying to) because... *insert personal logic here* - im not getting into it I'm "not qualified". You can go round in circles forever - humans make mistakes. If it was 11:45am or 6:45pm AF pilots will maybe have been thinking about something else. I don't think a fix will come from this thread or any other i'm afraid. Now - how can we blame this issue on MOL? :} |
Originally Posted by Hetfield
Yes, but totally different scenario.
In both cases, like some others, a goaround was misshandled. A typical A300/310 issue (have been there, got the t-shirt). It is interesting how folks in the heat of the battle forget to trim manually. IIRC, Karair pitch excursion somewhere around 1989 was stopped at 40° ANU as PF tried to relief the forces and trimmed, thereby kicking the AP out. So much for this digression.
Originally Posted by Alex757
but surely ... if the throttles moved (like a boeing) the crew would hold them until 80kts (or is it V1?) and would instantly recognise a power reduction
Originally Posted by ECAM Surprise
There was also an airbus case I believe.
Originally Posted by gerago
Remembered a stick and rudder hero at my previous outfit who decided to fly manually with A/P, A/T off.
Originally Posted by noclue
Having no idea of "airbus laws" can someone briefly explain this "alpha floor logic that they have??
Originally Posted by Bigmouth
Taking your hand off the throttle while hand flying is a mistake made only by pre-solo student pilots and rank amateurs.
Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
It's almost like groundhog day!
Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
no, it has nothing to do with the AB dead stick/lever philosophy, because even the Turkish managed to dump their 737 ..... etc. blah, blah ..
Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
How can you try to defend a design flop by pointing to morons producing an accident with another design???
Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
With the same argument we can abolish ABS and ESP in modern cars by showing that there are some other morons who were able to crash even highly equipped cars!
Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
Such argumentation is not only puerile, but even cynical.
Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
To my belief controls with feedback represent an additional protection in modern cockpits.
Originally Posted by Gretchenfrage
But if you look at feedback-controls through the above optic, namely as an additional protection, it makes absolutely no sense to abolish them.
|
unlike machines, they tend not to perform equally every time Machines can have also malfunction .. and so no to perform equally every time Put all his trust in a machine is a mistake .. as has been often shown |
Speaking as a retired software/techie guy I would recommend that the PF should always be in the loop, receiving inputs and producing outputs. Mere monitoring does not keep him fully aware and he will not be in a sufficient state to take over.
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AF 321 close to stall
For those who asked: With A/T engaged actual IAS will not reduce below Vls (Vref) regardless of speed selected but if A/T off/disengaged (still serviceable) and levers at idle IAS will reduce below Vls but upon reaching the speed equivalent to alpha prot range, TOGA thrust will be applied regardless of thrust lever position or A/T status (except if u/s) A/P will disengage Alpha Floor annunciated and if on G/S, aircraft will climb away in Alpha Prot speed range. Pilot action will be to lower nose accelerate and recover. A/T will annunciate TOGA LOCK until further action on levers by pilot.
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Oeb
OEB Already mentioned affects Airbus and Boeing , possibly the issue with rad alt 1 going to zero and causing speed decay ( flaremode) when coupled to an ILS will lead to a rapid drop in speed until alfa floor kicks in.
If they were in manual thrust or disenaged a/Thrust then toga lock would appear until throttles moved , or the throttles would have to be manually moved to cause the speed decay... If the automatics ie rad alt was the problem , then the automatics caused the problem ....which then fixed the problem...? Sort of ironic really. As far a pilots flying 'hotas ' totally agree, BUT maybe , just maybe the manufacturers ( both) should FIX THE FRIKKIN PROBLEM not just write nice bulletins OEBs etc for crew to remember in this less paper AKA more paper cockpit they inflict on us. AIrbus lost a jet and test pilots due to engine thrust reduction on one side after takeoff some years ago as the aircraft transitioned via ALT* at lowish level where it is not speed protected. T his is a nice little note or caution in the FCOM... Prob should be a WARNING but the lawyers got hold of it - dont want to alarm the punters!! . Alternatively they could have FIXED it before someone gets the chance to test it for real with a eng prob. after takeoff with hi ROC and low ALT level offs. . IMHO Airbus and Boeing both run by lawyers and accountants ... Bring back decent engineering not paper mache coverups and then blame pilots when they dont pick it up. |
Soon, very soon we will rid ourselves of these pesky pilots with their ridiculous salary and benefit demands and refusal to work 20 hour shifts. All flights will be controlled from ground stations located in various third world countries staffed by low cost x-box players.
Signed … The accounting department. :cool: |
@woodja51
wtf are you talking about? Two pros of a flag carrier ignored a speed decay of about 30kts during approach. That's it. |
Point made, mate!
Hetfield,
I am too fed up with this empty bull****ting, endless bla bla bla trying to explain the unexplanable. Unfortunately, as I wrote here regarding the idiot that slammed a perfectly flyable aircraft into a montain in Indonesia (Sukoi), for each Capt Sully 1,000 morons are born. No more political correctness! Just facts and actions. One thing is an unnavoidable disaster, other is to screw up with people's lives by irresponsible training, poor evaluation system combined with criminal negligence and lack of basic airmanship. |
fullforward :
the idiot that slammed a perfectly flyable aircraft into a montain in Indonesia (Sukoi), for each Capt Sully 1,000 morons are born. So I would be careful before giving idiots/morons adjectives. |
ATC Watcher
and what Sully would have done in a badly planned demo flight in Indonesia In flying planning is everything - that is what we do. I also doubt that Capt. Sully would have started a planned flight and then decided on a whim to to change the plan at the last minute - although I am not suggesting for one minute that this happened on the Sukhoi disaster. |
I suspect Capt. Sully would hae been very unlikely to have accepted a very badly planned demo flight in the first place. They're a dangerous airline. THREE hull losses since 2001! |
PLEASE...
come back to that particular AF issue. |
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