Over-tired pilots 'falling asleep on duty'; BALPA Survey
 

BBC News - Over-tired pilots 'falling asleep on duty'
Over-tired pilots who fall asleep on duty are putting passenger safety at risk, MPs have been told.

Rob Hunter of the British Airline Pilots' Association said fatigue levels should be measured before flights to help alleviate the problem.

But "intense" competition by airlines to raise profits made this less likely, the transport committee heard.

Transport Minister Theresa Villiers said overall safety would improve as a result of changes to be made soon.

The committee is looking at the number of hours flight crews should be working.

The MPs heard that 43% of pilots said they had fallen asleep in the cockpit, based on a survey of 500 members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (BAPA).

Mr Hunter, the union's head of safety, said this was likely to lead to more accidents and that more should be done to gauge the problem.

'Embroiled'
He told the committee: "We need an appropriate reporting procedure. People fear that if they report fatigue they will be subject to a disciplinary process. Their concern is that they will be effectively writing the evidence for their own prosecution...

"We commonly receive letters that deal with cases where pilots feel that the process that they then get embroiled in is more fatiguing that the duty itself. It becomes a better option to put up with a bit of fatigue rather then report it."

The committee heard that, where there were only two pilots on a flight, they both had to remain on duty for the duration of the journey.

Mr Hunter said: "Sometimes airlines endorse a napping policy, where each pilot has a sleep... It can be effective...(but) one pilot who is (meant to be) awake can fall asleep."

But airlines often did not prioritise the issue of fatigue, he said, telling MPs: "They are very survival-driven. It's intensively competitive... as consumers and passengers we get a sense of the intense competitiveness in the airline industry."

'Significant gain'
During the hearing there was dispute over how easy it was to measure the level of fatigue among pilots.

Mr Hunter said the scientific method was reliable but added that airlines were "really quite woolly" in their implementation.

Representatives of carriers said this was not the case.

Tim Price, the regulation manager for flight operations at British Airways, said any measurement also did not take into account the activities of pilots in their spare time on their level of fatigue.

The UK system of dealing with fatigue - setting out hours to be worked, and the length of breaks in between - is to be replaced with a European-wide system.

Critics argue this will lead to a "levelling-down" of standards, but supporters say it means UK citizens who use flights operated by companies based elsewhere in the EU will get better safety.

Ms Villiers said moving to a Europe-wide system of safety regulation "would undoubtedly bring up the standards to a broadly equivalent level to that in the UK".

She added: "That will be a significant gain for British passengers when they get on planes."

I really would have to get out of aviation if this happened. Last Summer I had to report sick for duty a couple of times as I was so dog tired. Starting on an early.... min rest ...driving home as the sun was coming up from a deep night ..minimum rest again...then last day finish on a late. In bed with the sun coming through the curtains and the world going about its noisy business....no chance of a sleep. Lots of guys I know use melatonin but now can't seem to sleep without it! Really not looking forward to this season as it is :sad:

300 - 600 All of us face this problem in some form or another ....unfortunately some put the guy in the other seat in a bad position by not reporting sick when they are genuinely fatigued.

Just pulled this out of the Middle East thread... might be worth a look.

"All the best to my ex BA Connect / BRAL buddies out there .... another reunion due soon methinks . On topic after my pilots free flight Atlas "best bang for the buck" in my aviation career.... perfect for stop overs in daylight as well as on the aircraft or at home next to the snoring wife. Its a patented product which has double noise reduction (34 dBs on the plugs plus unspecified reduction on the covers/ plug retainers) . The mask cuts out light better than any mask I've ever used. They imply you can reuse it for life ...the reality is I have used mine almost every work day/ night for almost six months and continuously wiping it down eventually meant I had to buy another. Also the ear plugs dont even last that long but you can buy them separately for peanuts.

Speaking as an ignorant MOP, surely on a loooong flight, on autopilot, when nothing has to be done and you have audible alarms for any problems then this is not a big issue. If it is a bit of a problem then I would think perhaps more (or regular) alarms for routine checks would be a cheap and simple solution. There may be things that need doing/checking on such flights that I am not aware of but then I doubt either pilot would have nodded off anyway if that were the case.

I have seen pilots falling asleep on final approach in manual flight on their fourth consecutive early 5 sector day. Not really boring enroute environment and yet they still couldn't stay awake.

JWP, I hope you're joking.

JWP, All due respect.....

Get up at 3am, go and get a dining room chair and sit in it for 12 hours. Then go and get 12 hours rest.

Do this 5 days in a row. Then come back and tell us it’s “not a big issue.” :hmm:

That's just the thing, Set.
He seems to think it's no big deal if you sleep during the flight.
The autopilot is doing all the work anyway! :ugh:

Do aviation authorities disallow modafinil?

Not from what I can see Poorjohn. There appear to be quite a few studies on the effects of Modafinil on military pilots, the results were generally very positive, so I can only assume that these findings are applied to Civil Aviation as well (please tell me if I'm wrong, I'm curious myself). Check the link below, its an abstract from a 2004 USAF study on F117 pilots after 37 hours sleep deprivation. The associated reading is quite cool, must have been a fun test.

Modafinil's effects on simulator per... [Aviat Space Environ Med. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

Leave him alone, he's old and used to work for a bank - say no more :eek:

More BBC inaccuracies...
 

Mr Rob Hunter of BALPA?

No - he's a medical Dr.

Muppets.

DB :{

MPs had to be told that? :\

AdamF, imo anyone who operates dangerous machinery (e.g. an airplane) and has even the slightest chance of nodding off owes it to themselves, their loved ones, and the unwashed bunch in the back to have the stuff available.

I didn't go off and read the AvWeek article so don't know what it doesn't cover, but if it didn't refer to the stuff as "viagra for the brain" I can toss that in - it works when you want it to and makes it easy to remain attentive, but you also can take it and hop in the sack and sleep well if that opportunity presents itself. That makes it a lot more 'user friendly' than the amphetamines.

In most places it's not dispensed without your doctor's script, and if I were flying commercially I'd make sure to get that from my flight physician. In the U.S. and a few other places it's a controlled substance, albeit in the second-lowest category. In places where it still enjoys patent protection (e.g. the U.S.) your doctor probably has been given free samples to share with likely candidates. (And in such places you'll be disappointed when the pharmacist hands you the bill - probably over US15 per each. Our northern neighbor is friendlier.)

No doubt the stuff can be abused by trying to go days without sleep. I mention it here because the problem being discussed is caused externally - I have great faith that no-one, having discovered that they can be attentive when they need to, will put in a few extra hours at his second job and try running on no sleep. It doesn't make superheros and imo starts becoming less effective (in normal doses, at least) after 24 hours or so. Also a friendly reminder that sharing prescription medicine with someone else is a crime in some places, and particularly if the med is a 'controlled' substance might be a felony. i.e. know the rules and play by them. Apologies if anyone takes offense at that.

Safe flight to all.

pj

Modafinil sounds cool, flying under the influence of drugs.... may be we have to amend the ANO.
Pop a pill to sleep, pop another one to fly, repeat until retirement. All for the balance sheet, sorry, consumer's safety of cause.

The trouble with all of this is that we have colleagues who do not play the game.

For example, the CAA used to allow a 1 hour 30 minute commute from home to starting duty.

How many colleagues have you flown with who have driven up from Cornwall or who have commuted into the duty from France? (Read the Colgan report).

How many colleagues have you flown with who have spent half of their rest period on the golf course?

They are the ones who are letting all of us down. In the eyes of the management, we don't have a case for these individuals have proved time and time again that they can commute for four hours and spend half of their layover time playing golf and still get into LHR on time from a CAT III approach.

If we could stop this sort of rubbish going on then the rest of us might stand a slight chance of being taken seriously by the public and the authorities.

I have said it before but I will say it again, I had an F/O fall asleep in the middle of an SID when he was PF.

I had an F/O who made the SOP call at the Outer Marker but failed to respond to the 500 foot (incapacitation call) for he was asleep on short final.

In both cases I suspected that they had not spent their off-duty time wisely.

In short, if we don't get our act together and put ourselves above criticism then we shall never be taken seriously.

Apologies not necessary PJ. No one should be offended by common sense. It is quite strictly controlled in my neck of the woods, I would like to see my av med's face if I asked him for a prescription. Kind of looks as though you may have answered your own question.

As a matter of interest, I spent 16 years in Transport Command and 24 hour duties were not unknown.

In fact, on the Belfast, we could do 42 hours with a double crew (we had a 6-bunk bedroom downstairs).

In those days, the RAF aviation medics were pushing Mogadon.

I never tried one for I was a great believer in getting the cr*p out of the way and then getting into the nearest bar when it was over.

Does Mogadon still exist and is it approved?

Half the rest time on the golf course? Six hours?!? You can't be that bad at golf, even as a pilot!

I do not play golf.