In Jet Airways case they code share with another Skyteam member, KLM.

Irrespective of the quality of 'journalism' here, certain facts have been acknowledged by the DGCA which do not qualify as speculative drivel from our local rags.
The supy DID occupy the RHS, although I am quite sure he/she did not land the plane. Even this yahoo can't be THAT stupid to allow a supy to do that.
Jet DID cover up the incident. No question about that.
The other aspect that can be debated to no end is the magnitude of the punishment to be meted out. As it stands right now, it looks like DGCA is not happy with the quantum of punishment. I have a feeling, as a face saving exercise, this guy is done as far as flying in India is concerned. They WILL throw the book at him, and hard.
As usual, the flaws in the system are glossed over and I reckon the underlying issues will be brushed under the rug.
What about CRM? Why was the effo so passive during the whole episode. I applaud him for filing a formal complaint. I did read something on another post where he will have a tough time in the future with other captains. I think that it is deplorable and if anything he should be congratulated for his courage. Keep in mind that like the culture here, the cockpit gradient is very steep. While I do not defend his actions during the incident, his follow up is commendable given the state of CRM and general hierarchical attitudes prevalent in this part of the world. He will probably have some tortuous flights initially, but in the long run he will be better off.
I believe that addressing these issues holistically is the only way out. But no one really wants to open up Pandoras box. I had high hopes after the AIX crash that there would be a fundamental shift in how things are done here but to no avail. I have personally given up hope for Indian aviation in the near future as it lumbers along rudderless and leaderless. Too many of these moronic incidents with no REAL tangible corrective action will just keep periodically lining up the holes in the proverbial Swiss cheese.

Notwithstanding the illegality of the issue here,-and I let it complete in the middle if it was wise to do so or not-the passengers on this plane were probably as safe on board as at any other initial training flight with a new S/O.

How on earth do you work that out?

The trainee would be type rated, would of completed base training.

The flight would be crewed with a training Captain and a Safety First Officer would of been on board.

This would of been in accordance with OM Part D.

This was noting short of wreckless.

No type rating, no base training, no safety FO, no training captain.:D

well theres no question about how illegal it was.We must recognize however that the flying culture in India is different from other parts of the world.The gradient being steep its not easy for the first officer.He did have the choice of not vacating his seat which IMO would have been the thing to do.I do believe however that the s/o was type rated.

Trainee landing: Jet suspends pilot

A bit of news from "India Blooms" paper.

Trainee lands Jet Airways plane; pilot suspended - India News - IBNLive

And if one wants to listen to a commentary.

Jet Boy, the DGCA confirmed he was NOT type rated.

Yeah we understand India is different alright, it's "incredible" :yuk:

I'm astonished that people on here are in some way attempting to defend this situation... ok, so here's me with my training hat on ... "eh bloggs, got my 6 year old daughter in the back .. how bout you go grab a coffee and read the paper".

Unbelievable. :ugh:

Few points regarding above mentioned discussion,

1. Incident occurred couple of months back.The matter was leaked to the DGCA recently.

2.Theflight safety was informed regarding the incident under the confidential reporting system in place , and it was kept in confidence as per the confidence reporting guidelines.

3.Crew were suspended for 3 months.

What could have been done better.

1.Quantum of punishment? Three months way too less I suppose ,Cancellation of License too much ,as rumored ,even Murderers get reprieves, you cannot take away a persons source of livelihood.

2.DGCA should have specified what has to be reported and level of punishment to be meted out.If you are not ready for the high end evolved stuff like SMS don't try it.Its nowhere there.

3.The F/O was a low time new release.He too is sweating it out.I am fairly certain no Captain in JetAirways is gonna hold it against him for his actions contrary too earlier posts just that he should have acted more firmly.

4.It is true that F/Os are not permitted to land in the first 50 hrs so if you fly with one expect the stds of a c152 with maybe a landing or two on the b737 of course lot of D sim ldgs Total flt. experience 250 hrs.

5.It's a Circus the whole lot,it can be fun at times,but highly frustrating for those who don't play along.

Rasper,

Your clearly not upto speed on this are you?

Jet Airways violated their AOC. As per the conditions that their AOC was issued under they are required to notify the DGCA of these incidents.

There was a coverup by Jet Airways Safety / Managment team.

The actions of the management have placed their AOC / IATA membership at risk.

The Captain did not make a "mistake" he deliberately violated the AFM and DGCA approved Company Operations Manual.

The only reason you don't see just how serious this is.... Is because all airlines in India operate to such a poor standard.

UNION
 

Few things to understand the local pilots "almighty" attitude

- local union put 9W under their knees few years back, going on an almost suicide strike amid the worst crisis the carrier experienced, as a reaction to the airline firing some unexpressive 'leaders'. They were actually reinstated;

- it's usual for them (at least some of them) to display less than professional attitude, for instance operating dressing pijamas (yes! even doing TO/LDG on long haul flights), smoking in the cockpit, spending long time in the back chating with the FAs are very popular behavior among them, kind of showing up how relaxed and 'nice guys' they are;

- the paternalistic and non punitive policy, owing to fears related to the first statement here, they consider themselves more or less 'untouchables'; so the playboysh attitude

It's no surprise this kind of behavior would eventually extend to safety threating level, as it's the case

That's very unfortunate, considering the majority of Jet Airways pilots are high level professionals.:ugh:

I know that if a similar event happened under the FAA the outcome would be license revoked ---reckless and careless....and that's final

:)

so did Jet finally get a union then?

No they have a pretend one. SWIP.

interesting. so what exactly did the strike achieve then?

Cost the company a lot of money, and had some expats who had their contracts ended... Asked to return to the company to prevent grounding of aircraft.

...and of course give (some) their pilots the sense of "power" to justify their unprofessional attitude, now slipping into downright dangerous territory.
There are numerous mistakes, omissions etc resulting from reckless operations, swiss cheese is alignning its holes...
BTW, the useless head of Flight Safety Department, as a 'punishment' has been upgraded to B777.

Maybe they will let an expat take over the flight safety department?:}

you've gotta be kidding. wait till the media gets a hold of this one!

Who runs Jet day to day anyway. I hear the owner is based in London and the CEO is based in the US and one of the highly regarded directors retired last year. So who really is running the show and calling the shots back in BOM.

Whats so difficult...... JUST FOLLOW THE RULE.........:*

Following rules seems to be difficult in India....

Just look at they way they drive!

TOO MANY PEOPLE...... TOOOOO MUCH OF KNOWLEDGE...

Try sticking to the issue..... i.e. Capt giving landing to Supy!!!!

Courage
 

Its a great leap when a F/O can stand up to a captain and report him. He should be punished for 'leaving' his seat, but on on the other hand, punished leniently. The capt on the other hand should be prosecuted for criminal negligence.

I heard of a similar situation yrs ago in my airline where one of our capt removed the F/O by verbal force and sat another company pilot (his friend) to do the landing. The 2nd pilot had experience on non-similar type (BAC1-11) and was soon to complete his conversion on the A320. The capt obviously felt above the law so to speak.

These captains have no place in modern airlines that like to follow good market safety procedures and good CRM principles.

A company that will 'tolerate' such cover ups has a time limit.

That's not the issue at all. It has several times been pointed out, if you'd bothered to read the thread, that the supernumerary did NOT land the aircraft. If he took any physical part in the flight, it was that he farted into the right-seat cushion. Otherwise, he was an observer and rider.

Maverick320,

With a name like "Maverick" maybe that is why you don't get the issue!

It is about the company ethos that allowed this Captain to come to the conclusion that an airliner full of passengers was the correct place to let and untrained, unqualified person occupy a required crewmembers seat.

Further, ignored the protest from the First Officer (who requested to get back into his seat for the landing)

That is part one of the issue:-

The second part is why the company flight safety department broke the terms and conditions of the airlines AOC and went out of their way to hide the matter from the DGCA.....

Does this sound like a safe operator? A good company safety attitude? A just culture? An airline that embraces CRM?

NO! Sounds more like an airline that allows a "Maverick" attitude in their company and in their flightdecks.

Incredible...
 

So do we assume that such aberrant behaviour by the Capt and passive (at least) submission to deviation by the FO is limited geographically? There are at least 3 well known events of European (ish) or Antibodean airlines having such events, an A310 crash, a B767 Capt getting a year as an FO... or a B737 with a passenger doing the takeoff resulting in a tailstrike. In these other events, not one party was from the sub continent...

Incredible.... disregard for rules, and contempt for professional standards of behaviour.

The reality is that much of the developing world have not really caught onto the idea of 'multi-crew co-operation'. Though they love breathing the magic letters C, R and M down your throat they have absolutely no idea what it means because quite simply an FO raising a concern, especially if Mr ex-mil Fast Jet jock is in the LHS, is considered disrespect. Until this is addressed (requires a major cultural change) we can expect more incidents like this.

CRM.....Had a friend who was going through Line Instructor Pilot training at KAL who told me that during the course one of the korean instructors said to the class "CRM is for western airlines, does not work here". You don't know whether to laugh or cry. Thing is, the instructor was right, CRM doesn't work over there. They don't know what it is. Change the name of the airline. SSDD.