Actually I don't even understand the rational for the maths lesson. Hourly rate/ passengers * length of flight... what has it got to do with the pilot how many people he carries?

How can one tell the difference?

Who knows?:confused:

Huck's airline carries no pax and 777 captains make $48 an hour more, pre-AA bankruptcy, with much better work rules:

Airline Pilot Central - American | Legacy

Airline Pilot Central - FedEx | Cargo

I think it is safe to say all AA 777 captains have at least 15 years of longevity for pay purposes.

Its about time EU law was changed to ban Bankrupt airlines from flying into EU from the US.

US complains all the time of unfair business practices elsewhere but it allows its airlines to walk away from their responsibilities which is not afforded to EU airlines.

Somewhere, there is a crusty old pilot, flying a ghostly Lockheed TriStar, who is grinning.

Lyman - I ROFLOL at that one... lovely! :ok:

I find it interesting that those, without having read the entire affidavit (which one can do here btw: http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...Raffidavit.pdf ) are quick to champion the position that this is "labours fault." I find it interesting that they maintain this position without providing an exact financial butressing of this line of thought. Perhaps, perhaps not. Some facts however, (always in short supply when the teeth are bared in hatred or anger...) would be beneficial so as to pay this argument proper heed.

Speaking of pay. In all the years I have heard this topic discussed, I have NEVER once been witness to one of the proponents of the "union goons are taking the company down" position sketch out just exactly what the compensation package should be. I happen to fly the 777 and have asked many in discussions exactly what they think I should earn. All (other than the stupid "$10 per hour" remark) have demured. I was earnestly seeking an opinion the same way that I seek an opinion of how much I will need to pay the crew to get my driveway resurfaced.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that had one been a member of the prep school debating team (or even watched it in action) one would realize that bringing some rigour to the argument would help.

I cannot speak for Huck in this matter but I am sure he has had the same experience. It really boils down to the point that if one says the pilots are paid too much then how can one say this without knowing exactly much they should be paid according to the financials. Saying the one without knowing the other renders the argument nugatory...

The US airline deregulation act of 1978 has led to a race to the bottom for all the US air carriers. Not one single carrier has survived without having to go through Chapter 11.
The air fares are about the sane as they were 20 years ago. It's totally insane.

An AA twelve-year captain, and a twelve-year F/O, make a combined $344 US an hour.

That's (roughly) a dollar an hour for every seat in the back of the aircraft.

So on an eight hour slog across the atlantic, each passenger is paying less than ten dollars US for the flight crew's salaries. Add another ten for benefits and support, and another ten for the flight attendants. You're still at $30. Total. For the flight.

You could cut their pay to zero and it wouldn't make a dent in the thousand-dollar coach tickets in the back.

Is that any clearer?

pieceofcake
 

I think Huck (post39) is fairly accurate if he is saying $20 per ticket. Do some work and take total aircrew costs and divide by number of passengers flown and you will see approximately how much a ticket is taken by aircrew salaries.

It will be a very small proportion of costs.:hmm:

AA pilots are still working under the concessionary pay and work rules they got when they had to negotiate out of the $40 Million court settlement from their sick-out. The ONLY "good thing" they got out of that contract was a continuation of their pension plan. Now it looks like AA will be able to unilaterally terminate that as well.

This bankruptcy was predictable as soon as the AA pilots rejected both options in AA's public "last best offer" a week or 2 ago. Too bad [mis]management decided to take it public instead of negotiating in good faith. It's the norm in the industry (as well as corporate America in general), though... :(

American are indeed reported as having $4bn in cash, but they also have debts of $29bn listed. If those are due to be repaid tomorrow that would be a very good reason to go for Chapter 11 today.

Couldn't agree with you more racedo but alas it won't happen as the EU needs the SLF to come and spend money within it's borders plus the US will normally reciprocate and then it's no good for anyone. Nice idea though.

What about Southwest? They were certainly around in 1978.

I can remember a United pilot saying 'here come the scabs' years ago as a lowly Southwest crew boarded the hotel bus. Now UAL pilots get 737 type ratings in hopes of an interview at Southwest.

And, since we earlier mentioned pay, a twelve year SWA 737 captain makes $210 an hour, a UAL 777 or 744 captain makes $190 an hour. The United 737 captain makes $137 an hour. Maybe Southwest didn't race to the bottom as fast as United.

Air bubba

But, SWA has a entirely different business model that allows them to pay more but have lower crew costs. The network lines, like AA, want to offer service everywhere, fly as big s market share as possible. If you want to go from Bismarck, ND to Ft Myers or Shanghai, the network carriers can do it thru hubs and RJ feed. SW says, "we fly to these airports, selected by the fact we can go there 6-8 times a day, and fly you to these cities. If you don't live here, drive to meet us.". They have one type, no hubs, no feed, no international flights, they are a bus. A very good one, I might add. They were created outside of the regulated environment.

Everyone of the legacy airlines still think they are operating as in the old days, from the entrenched bureaucracies, the union rules, the multiple types, the debt, the MBA types. They need to change to a different model, one based on reality, not history.

You might note EK doesn't worry about feed, they might be the SW of international flying.

The employee's will pay for the new aircraft order, AMR will balance their books. Like the above post's the other legacies made harsh decisions much earlier than AMR did. Time will tell their strength and position in the market.

What about pensions? Are they out the door?

I haven't flown a flight with AA I thought was worth the value in years. I'd fly any other airline and pay more before I'd willingly hand over fare to them.

The most recent flight was under the guise of another carrier. Much to my surprise, the boarding pass showed AA. I boarded the flight in October and the aircraft had the worst old dirty, musty smell-- like an old transit bus in a bad part of town, not to mention horribly cramped, uncomfortable seats that were past their expiration dates. And I haven't seen friendly cabin crew in years.

There is the law of supply and demand. Their schedule of flights may have flown full, but they lost the art of customer satisfaction and IMHO, therefore, a bigger picture. The customer will ultimately pay for the value and AA lost it a long time ago.

Hhmmm. Most families would consider his basic salary of $669,646 a reasonable amount of 'security' but they speak a different language in the board room.

Frankly? Yes. If mgmt know they have Ch.11 on call when they want, they will take bigger risks. Also, they know that they are in control of the bankruptcy. That is not fair in any one's language and if we had some genuine bankruptcies - it might focus the attention of some other companies. Like with the banks themselves. Banks have not been allowed to fail and so the failure spreads FAR WIDER.

The Republican Party must be just SOOO proud of themselves.

PAXboy

Please re-read history of deregulation of the airlines. It was Ted Kennedy and Jimmy Carter who wrote and passed the deregulation law. Phil Bakes, who killed Eastern, was a staffer of Kennedy's.