4th June 2010 B737-800 rejected takeoff after V1 Report is out
 

Also all escaped very luckily, food for thoughts... read

Well, I guess this says it all.

Well, one should have a very good reason to do that.

Anyhow, rejecting above v1 doesn't necessarily mean you will end up in the grass....

Only a Captain can initiate a rejected takeoff at FR?

Says a lot about the company and its recruiting policy.

Where I work the F/O can call stop for any fire, engine failure confirmed by two parameters (one internal), red warning, predictive windshear, serious handling difficulties or an obviously blocked runway. They treat us like adults!

It's not only with FR. SOP im many airlines.....

hetfield
-not flying for FR-

If you were really an adult you would understand fully the enormous difference in terms of responsibility between "pilot handling" & "pilot in command".

Given the low experience level of many F/O in RYR do you really find it so absurd that the company has decided that Bloggs in the RHS is not permitted to abort a take off, when on this occasion he seems to have found it acceptable to do so after V1,indeed after VR in this case, for something which could not be found during investigation, after merely "feeling something wasn't right".
If I had been sitting left of him I would be mightily p!ssed off, not only is it completely contrary to SOP's, it is also, in many cases, likely to result in a very high speed exit from the runway end.
I trust he is no longer in the employment of Ryanair.

What, even after V1?!

Locked Door. depends on what you understand by "initiate" - only the Captain (ie the LHS) can action a rejected take off (am assuming nothing extraneous such as suspected pilot incapacitation) - I believe this is also Boeing procedure.

I think you are being somewhat disingenuous in suggesting that this is a factor in "recruiting policy" and being "treated as adults" in this respect.

- indeed, cps, and dear 'old' Locked Door might be pleasantly surprised one day to find he had then got into his airline (by being a 'Captain for the Future' at the interview) and was sitting alongside him and PF for take-off - oh what fun he could have flying with this 'adult'.

FFB - in BA, at least while I was there a while back, the F/O could also conduct the abort. Great situation actually - F/O reacts (or makes) STOP call, closes throttle, ensures RTO function or begins braking. Captain applies reverse (over the top of the tightly clenched 'adult' F/O's hand which he forgot to remove from the throttles). One used to pray for a lady F/O...................:)

...because they would be great examples of Just Culture at work! FFS get out of the 1940's and grow up.

Training - extract from the Flight Safety article
 

"There is no specific guidance from the operator or manufacturer on dealing with control issues at the time of rotating the aircraft.

• Specific guidance on rejecting a takeoff exist in case of an engine failure.
• Review of past statistics and studies show that pilot training and requirements focus on rejected takeoffs due to an engine failure. Studies and statistical information show that this accountsbfor less than 25% of the reasons for rejected takeoffs. Thus 75% of the reasons the reject a takeoff is not trained for."

Last paragraph is an interesting statement. Guidance for the future?

Link to the report by the Dutch Safety Board (in English)

Find out what allowed it to happen!

Bluepilot,

Yes this individuals actions seem questionable from the information released.

A flight crews actions under stress are a combination of that individuals talent levels and the training he/she has received from his/her employer(s). Assuming the recruitment process at FR is robust questions need to be asked of the training department, not the individual.

Removing the mistake maker may be cheaper, but not fairer. With good training this sort of incident need not happen so in this case I would hope a few sim details were the solution, not termination.

Er the reaction would have been to try to figure out why it happened and to find the problems with the system and fix them to stop it happening again...

(by system I mean the whole thing which would include crew selection and training, sops, aircraft equipment and so on)

For someone whose join date is 2003 that's a remarkably naive comment.

The actual reaction would have been at least 22 pages by PPRUNE's resident pop psychologists blathering on about the pilot's 'survival instinct'. The blatant hypocrisy is astounding: when the aircraft crashes people complain about the lack of the pilot's 'survival instinct' but when the pilot rejects the take-off and everyone lives then the pilot's is a weakling who didn't follow procedures. It's a great shell game where the poster is always correct no matter the outcome.

Thankfully, the Dutch investigators are better than that and wrote what is an excellent report. My own reaction is that if the pilot flying even spends one second in the sim, let alone be fired, for this incident an injustice was done to him.

They've left no stone unturned.....

Air France did it in a 777 at Lagos a while back after the Captain inadvertently engaged the autopilot during the T/O roll and then found the controls locked at Vr.

Luckily it wasn't going far so was quite light and Lagos has a long runway, I believe the result was multiple tyre changes.

If your a heavy commander/Fo and MTOW and you decide an RTO is appropriate with your nose in the air I would suggest you wont be on the deck for much longer.

Most SOPs emphasize that your hand will be removed from the thrust levers by V1. It's an elementary, instinctive reaction as there is no longer a decision to be made.

For a flying pilot to have a "feeling," seconds after V1, that the airplane won't fly is imaginary. . . and to discontinue the takeoff after rotation is suicidal.

Thankfully the runway at EIN is sufficiently long and Mr. Boeing fits some damn good brakes to his aircraft.

What annoys me most about this accident, aside from the endangerment of people's lives, is the absolute "sweep it under the rug" attitude Ryanair adopts to this accident, as it does with many others.

I've been in the sim for two consecutive RST's since this took place. In the last one, we spent 20 minutes trying out a new garbage SOP.

Perhaps those 20 minutes, and many others, could've been spent more efficiently one might think. :*