F-HPJD is back in CDG.
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Imagine JFK, or any other major airport, if ALL the ramp instructions were done on ground control also. There are other ways of doing things than you do them in the USA. Sometimes they are better, believe it or not! |
F-HPJD is back in CDG. If what is stated here is correct, "It had to stop a few meters from its parking stand as there was a problem with a truck blocking its access." (Does anything about that scenario sound at all familiar?) Photos of damage can be found here, and a short article on the collision here. There are other ways of doing things than you do them in the USA. Sometimes they are better, believe it or not. |
Misd-agin, if ever you can find where Europe is, why not come and see how it's done at the major airports here. You might learn something ;)
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FMGC
Your smiley "" would seem to suggest that this is a silly suggestion but many, many non US airports do this. Many have more than 1 ground freq that will cover the ramp and the taxiways in that area (for example ground north or ground south). Then the aircraft on the taxiways and the stands in one particular area are all on the same freq. You should think about what you are suggesting here. What MIGHT have happened was a result for moving from one sector frequency to another while taxiing around on the ground. What is the difference if it is at one arbitrary point or another on the ground. Infact JFK already has multiple ground frequencies (121.9 and 121.65). Then there are about 10 different ramp freqs... If you made 12 different ground freqs how would that be safer? as you make the orbit around the airport on taxiway A or B, you are suggesting that having your head down for 12 freq changes would be safer? Not to mention all the extra transmissions required to sign on and off of each freq? Here is reality. JFK is a large busy airport. No one person can possibly be watching all aircraft movements. On the other hand, every aircraft commander IS responsible for the safe operation of HIS aircraft and must know how wide a gap he needs to taxi his aircraft forward. If he doesn't know that, he's not qualified to fly his jet. Airfrance was not broad sided. It struck a non moving object. Quite simply, no matter how large the aircraft, there is no, I repeat NO excuse for it. |
Wino - I understand what you say and have operated in and out of the USA quite a lot. I think it is fair to say that the American system of having Ground Movement Control hand you off to Ramp Control, which is not staffed by ATC and doesn't have the big airport picture, is unusual if not unique to the USA.
More common is to have GMC control aircraft to their parking spot. What this probably means is that the GMC facility is bigger and has more staff than in the USA. No need for twelve different frequencies, many big airports use between one and four at the most, but no more than two is quite common. Whilst USA orientated pilots will scoff at the possibility of the RJ crew notifying GMC that they were not clear of the taxiway, in a very large number of places outside the USA that would have been SOP. |
Hotel Tango - I've found Europe many times over the last 21 yrs and so far all attempts have been successful. Matter of fact, I learned to fly in Europe. Kinda upsets the 'why don't you see the world beyond the U.S. arguement, doesn't it?
Some European cities, to include French cities :eek:, use the same 'outdated' U.S. style, ground control hands off to ramp control for parking. And NO system will protect your wingtips better than the PIC will, or least should. I'm curious, have you been to JFK? May 21st will be the 33rd anniversary of my first JFK landing. Private pilot, 163 hrs TT, night flight to JFK for experience. |
parabellum - Whilst USA orientated pilots will scoff at the possibility of the RJ crew notifying GMC that they were not clear of the taxiway, in a very large number of places outside the USA that would have been SOP.
********************** We don't 'scoff' at it. It's SOP in the U.S. also. But ultimately it doesn't matter if the RJ forget to advise ground control that they weren't clear, or couldn't because of frequency congestation. You(we) are ultimately responsible for the safety of your(our) aircraft. No one else is. |
But ultimately it doesn't matter if the RJ forget to advise ground control that they weren't clear, or couldn't because of frequency congestation. You(we) are ultimately responsible for the safety of your(our) aircraft. No one else is. We don't 'scoff' at it. It's SOP in the U.S. also. |
parabellum:
Shame it didn't happen this time then. There have been quite a few posters who have dismissed the idea of the RJ telling ground he wasn't clear, which surprises and disappoints me. It was a taxiway, not a runway. Myself, I would reserve my disappointment toward the "hittee" pending all the crew and ATC interviews, and the transcript of the pertinent ATC and CVR tapes. (If the CVR tapes were still intact.) |
Wino,
You should think about what you are suggesting here. What MIGHT have happened was a result for moving from one sector frequency to another while taxiing around on the ground. What is the difference if it is at one arbitrary point or another on the ground. This RAMP freq thing seems to be a peculiarly US phenomena that nobody else does, maybe for good reason. |
Does anyone know whether this event is being treated as an "accident" of the kind that requires a preliminary report within 30 days?
It would be good to have some hard facts, like the aircraft's actual speed, rather than relying on guesswork based on a video which may or may not be playing at real-time speed. |
Myself, I would reserve my disappointment toward the "hittee" There have been quite a few posters who have dismissed the idea of the RJ telling ground he wasn't clear, which surprises and disappoints me. |
Globaliser
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fmgc - This RAMP freq thing seems to be a peculiarly US phenomena that nobody else does, maybe for good reason.
---------------------------------------- It's used in at least one major European hub, so saying "nobody else does", is wrong. |
It would be good to have some hard facts, like the aircraft's actual speed, We shall see. |
It's used in at least one major European hub, so saying "nobody else does", is wrong. De Gaulle De Icing Ramp/Taxi Control 131.75 De Gaulle De Icing Ramp/Taxi Control 122.175 De Gaulle De Icing Ramp/Taxi Control 122.125 De Gaulle De Icing Ramp/Taxi Control 121.675 |
misd-agin,
Some European cities, to include French cities , use the same 'outdated' U.S. style, ground control hands off to ramp control for parking. Glad you know where Europe is ;) |
The split US (or JFK) ramp/ground procedures may be different from the rest of the world. They may even be less smart than the rest of the world. But that really doesn't matter.
You drive on US roads, you drive on the right. No cop is going to accept "Americans drive on the wrong side of the road!" as an excuse for running into another car. You fly into JFK, you should understand JFK's procedures and operate with them in mind. If you can't, turn down the assignment. "When in Rome....." |
If we had always taken that attitude in aviation we wouldn't be progressing safety.
In every accident or incident systems and procedures need to be questioned and changed if necessary. Wherever in the world that you are. |
Those aren't mutually incompatable approaches.
It's quite possible that one final outcome of this accident will be a recommendation to JFK to change their procedures. Or their taxiways. ;) That does not relieve the PIC of responsibility for following and taking into account the procedures, however bad, in effect at the time and place he is operating his/her airplane. And looking out the window to see what is in the way. |
I agree.
It's the pic that stops the last hole in the Swiss cheese from lining up and causing an accident. |
I think the final outcome of this investigation will be all PIC's are required to not let their wings hit anything. Ground control has a lot of stuff going on and I don't think their job is making sure the captain doesn't misjudge his wing clearance. If so we will need a lot more ground controllers with a lot more taxi data. Why is it so hard to taxi your aircraft without help for wing tip clearance? I never needed it. Of coarse that was only 23,000 hrs.
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OK, my 2 cents worth. AF A380 pilots stuffed up; they were taxiing a really heavy plane with a huge amount of momentum at a reasonable speed for the conditions. It was a mistake any of us could have made; imho the AF and F/O skipper are going to be held responsible with the necessary penalties and a big lesson learnt. AF will probably take into account the mitigating circumstances which certainly favour a more lenient view to the error.
In the dark environment, it was difficult to make out the position of the RJ. What more with the myriad of flashing beacons from other planes and ground vehicles in the vicinity. Have anyone operated into LAX lately during misty/foggy night hours? The plethora of flashing red and amber lights with ground vehicles darting around are sure enough to put one into a stroboscopic induced syncope. Add this to the non stop chatter on ground frequency with the F/O having to contact ramp tower on another, the overload of one's visual and aural senses together with the need to navigate the complex taxiway system due to sporadic partial closures of certain taxiways, can truly be overwhelming. I ain't a skygod, it is sure taxing for an average pilot. |
Perhaps at JFK as in EWR razor thin staffing levels leads to the situation where one waits forever for everything as the rampers are busy doing something else, RJ arrivals being low on their list of priorities Hold short of the gate. "Ops we need marshalers". Minutes later some dude with uniform worn gangsta' style, hat cocked sideways, casually sashays or perhaps languidly saunters into view to show to crew and pax there is no hurry at all. Of course the FOM requires two wing walkers. "Ops, yeah we need wing walkers at gate whatever". Wait another five minutes. Maybe they have their required lighted wands, maybe not. Hopefully an A380 doesn't blast by and take your tail off. Get guided in, no jetway driver. Another call to Ops. Twenty minutes or so have passed by the time everyone deplanes...:ugh:
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Sad isn't it at the complete ****ty stuff pilots need to endure this day. Just came back form a 13 hour flight with 360 over pax with 19 wheelchair cases and docked into a gate with 2 aerobridges available and fully serviceable. Airport service staff insisted on using only one boarding bridge for disembarking and it took a good 40 over minutes for the whole process.
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Welcome to PPruNe I would say.
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I see the thread has been dusted off a bit. Good job.
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Agnostique, I'll give you a one-word difference between the two events - VIDEO.
The VIDEO showed a really big (nationality irrelevent) aircraft spinning around a rather small (nationality irrelevent) aircraft. That grabbed global (not just PPRuNE) attention. Not sure - yet - how much damage was done in the 737-on-737 accident. Perhaps it should have stayed on R&N a bit longer. |
Maybe Strauss-Kahn was on board the AF as well and wanted to get away fast :E
Couldn't resist, sorry. And I know he is assumed not guilty until proven otherwise... |
DSK
Guess for his wanted speedy departure even that video accelerated A 380 was moving to slow!!
But I am amazed this thread is still going.!! Thought all is said ?? Could add to my earlier post a few more reasons for the accident learned from this thread: - A wreckless lory driver that cut off a planes travelling on the ramp - Cramped parking and timeslots for use prevented a smooth taxy to position - Probably - assumption - balloony, non standard, chat on ramp freq. prevented a warning in time from the RJ pilot that his tail was sticking into the safety space of TWY "A" - A Ramp control that obviously is more involved in other tasks than safeguarding the activities in that area of responsibilty - A "handover area" - ever heard about that at JFK ?? - Taxi/ Ramp not existing - Probably an AF pilot trusting on the received clearance and assuming safe taxi lane - AF crew probably distracted by other duties or the lighting situation at the place of the accident - Razorblade thinned out (Quote) staffing in ATC and so on and so on. I do not defer pilots responsibilties to other units or persons, but before someone should shed blame on another the conditions must fit international standards. Thats my personal opinion. So lets look and wait what NTSB - FAA and Port Authority are party in that case and shouldn´t run the investigation - findings will be. Jo |
Fender-bender for 2 Delta planes at ATL Thursday night | 11alive.com
By the way, you could park a 737 on EACH wing of the A380 |
A380 Visibility from Cockpit in Static Position
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SM As long as NYPA allows the use of taxiways below Annex 14 standards this sort of thing will happen You can of course prove to us 'doubters' of your knowledge of aviation, which taxiway fails to meet Annex 14 and specifically, why. Over to you ... :D |
Quote: SM As long as NYPA allows the use of taxiways below Annex 14 standards this sort of thing will happen You can of course prove to us 'doubters' of your knowledge of aviation, which taxiway fails to meet Annex 14 and specifically, why. Over to you ... |
Well done SM with that single line, you have managed to confirm that your knowledge of ICAO and how it works, specifically Annex14, is as woefully lacking as your knowledge in other areas of aviation. |
AF were just unlucky they operate the largest modern aircraft to JFK. |
A VERY similar accident happened yesterday between a B747 and an ERJ....let's hear the passionate people from this forum share their passion for the wingtip clearance of the 747, lest the double standards be brutally exposed...
Boeing 747 clips tail of American Eagle regional jet in Chicago - USATODAY.com |
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The TV video shows the B744 nose wheel on the taxiway centreline as well.:ugh:
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