While I honestly think that the above is a terrible schedule here is a schedule according to Subpart Q :

Day1(after days off) : Training 0540-1755
Day2(2 sectors) : 1530-0050
Day3(2 sectors) : 1720-2340 (almost rest day....)
Day4(2 sectors) : 1630-0230
Day5(Standby) : 1500-1600
Day6(2 sectors) : 0620-1920
2 days off afterwards...

The above is absolutely not an abnormal rostering in my company. Not talking about some small Eastern Europe, obscure, cargo operation (apologized to the Eastern Europe, obscure, cargo operations, that actually have a proper FTL), but a Western Europe medium sized operator just working according to Subpart Q.

All I can say is, I really hope that you guys (BALPA/IALPA/whatever) can cause enough commotion/uproar to change the proposed rules to something acceptable, otherwise I fear that the only way to change this blatent disregard of the hazards of fatigue, is a huge scorced hole in the ground......

Quality
Agreed but does that schedule now still happen at Easyjet - ?
The roster you mention was in my humble view a by product of the UK CAA early / late rules - there's plenty of scientific evidence supporting consecutive earlys / nights and the EASA makes no mention of any proposed limits because in Europe apart from the UK there are few/none.
So bringing up what happened in the past is wrong because Easyjet went a long way to managing fatigue. I have more sypathy for MIR the only question i would ask is was that schedule possible before sub part Q was introduced:\

Mr Angry

I doubt that you would find such a roster at Easy now I agree.

Really I was trying to make the point that within relatively restrictive limits agreed by the authorities in a modern western airline it is quite possible to produce very fatiguing rosters. Everyone accepts crap rosters occasionally as part of the job but examples like these on a continual basis affected the health and wellbeing of lots of people.

Not willy waving here but the easy roster is significantly worse than the other example given imo. Six more sectors, four sector days, more deep night and no standby? Still tiring of course particularly if the standby was changed.

Within such a pattern it can vary a lot , nowadays trainers can find themselves with cadets every time they fly. Throw in some weather or other difficulties and they become really challenging.

Not being funny but do you fly yourself?

What is evident from the discussion thus far, is that almost all airlines continue to stretch their pilots' duty hours, thus compromising aviation safety with the tacit approval of the regulators.

But do they ever pause to consider as to how long can they stretch their vital human resource till it snaps - definitely such stressful working schedules must be taking its toll on the pilots - personally and socially. There is a need to regulate the regulators.

Hence if the pilots or their associations have an opportunity to voice their concerns on the EASA's NPA on FDTL - they must act NOW.

Absolutely!

Unfortunately it's the way things work;

1) corporations will try to push the envelop claiming it's all safe,
2) insiders will keep on warning,
3) regulators (greased by big corporation lobbyists) will continue to look away and,
4) in the end, when it all goes horribly wrong, the public will have to pay the price and some mid level employee (i.e. pilot!) will get the blame. :(

What a wonderful con job, it's basically the "financial crisis 2.0"

Don't let a good crisis and a massive oversupply of pilots go to waste! :yuk:

411A, you posted:

Day1(after rest day) : Ltn- Nce -Ltn. 0510- 1010
Day2. :Ltn-Gla-Ltn-Pmi-Ltn. 0820- 1720
Day3. :Ltn-Cdg-Ltn-Pmi-Ltn. 1740- 0245
Day4. :rest
Day5. :Ltn-Pmi-Ltn. 0145- 0725
Day6. :Ltn- Agp-Ltn. 0230-0905


A few weeks of that and you need a month off just to recover believe me.
All legal apparently but ridiculous IMO.
Legal, yes.
Especially tiring...no.

How would you know? You fly a heavy jet on, I assume, long haul sectors on an unspecified continent(s)

When did you last fly a B737-300 in Europe to the roster described?

Correct.

I don't fly small jets on multiple sectors, in Euroland, or otherwise.
However, IF I desired to do so, I would expect a roster as above, accordingly.
To expect otherwise, is totally unrealistic...seems to me.
IE: join a short haul aircarrier, expect multiple sectors...and plenty of them.
Goes with the territory.
Get used to it...unlikely to change.

Quality - sorry i could have put it differently. I have more sympathy for MIR's schedule because it's happening out there today. The EASY schedule you mentioned doesn't happen anymore because they reacted to a fatiguing situation that was becoming self evident.
As for me flying not me Chief, i'm a clone of 411A, er well maybe not. :\

Only 4 days left to comment...

EASA's comment website is obstructive and time consuming on purpose to minimise negative feedback.

If these changes are implemented there will have to me a myriad of FATIGUE events MORd by crew to overturn the legislation

The said NPA on FDTL allows comments by e-mail as well, (with a restriction though) which may be of use to members not able to access EASA's Comment Response Tool (CRT):

For those with ease of access to CRT: Send your comments using the Comment-Response Tool (CRT) available at EASA CRT application

However, in case the use of CRT is prevented by technical problems these should be reported to the CRT webmaster and you may still submit your comments by email to [email protected].

Hope it helps those who are inclined to safeguard their interests in the long run...

The document is found at EASA CRT application
You think your days are already long?
Are you ever tired at work?
Is this the reason you sometimes make mistakes?
Are these proposed reduction of minimum rest periods and extension of working days the way to go in aviation?
You have until midnight tonight Sunday, 20 March to comment.
The BALPA organisation has made a big effort in putting together a "guide to responses" at wakeup.balpa.org
For your own sake and that of passengers everywhere don't pass this by.

Only 1800 or so BALPA members have responded :hmm:

The implicatons of the NPA are frightening but it seems apathy abounds.

EASA should take these 1800 pilots very seriously !

Quote "Day1(after rest day) : Ltn- Nce -Ltn. 0510- 1010
Day2. :Ltn-Gla-Ltn-Pmi-Ltn. 0820- 1720
Day3. :Ltn-Cdg-Ltn-Pmi-Ltn. 1740- 0245
Day4. :rest
Day5. :Ltn-Pmi-Ltn. 0145- 0725
Day6. :Ltn- Agp-Ltn. 0230-0905


A few weeks of that and you need a month off just to recover believe me.
All legal apparently but ridiculous IMO.


Legal, yes.
Especially tiring...no. "

End quote.




I have to say, up until this post I have disagreed with everything 411A has had to say on this subject, but this one got my interest.

If you want tiring, try working balls out, with a ten minute break every two hours, starting at 0600-1600 Mon-Fri and 0600-1300 Saturdays with two days a week overtime (compulsory) 'til 1900. Oh, and all for 300 quid a week after offtakes.

I know someone who does this and believe me, THAT'S tiring.

Now grow up lest the rest of us mere mortals start lumping you lot in with bankers.


:mad::ugh::=

... if that person is flying 300 people every day, working in a fatigued state in a safety critical environment where mistakes = fatal accidents, and if you are happy to sit in an aeroplane flown by a pilot in that state, then your comment is relevant.

Doctor Cruces

Therein peeps lies the problem. The population at large cannot / will not ever understand the problem with crass rostering until they start working random work patterns. I know, I worked a "normal job" for 10 years leaving home at 05:45 returning about 19:30. What a doddle it was! But I had no real responsibility, if I made a mistake there was always tomorrow to sort it out.

Agreed. Support should not be expected from the public, if it affects them adversely in any way they will cry fowl.

Dr Cruces

I grew up a long time ago so don't be so insulting.

Once you or your pal 411A have operated such rosters for some time you might be qualified to comment.

I guess that's unlikely in your case as you aren't even a pilot!:ugh:

411A
The FAA does good work, but on the issue of flight time duty time they have had their heads stuck in the sand for years, due to bending to the will of the commercial operators lobby. In such a risk adverse society all professional pilots should be outraged at such disreguard for our safety, and the traveling publics. The FAA, and if passed EASA's lack of regulation for safe air travel with respect to fatigue on flight crews is WEAK. This is the kind of issues unions need to go on strike for in the year 2011.

EASA proposals
 

This video clearly shows the negative impact on flight safety of the new EASA proposals.

DasErste Mediathek [ARD] - Plusminus - Flugverkehr: Piloten im Sekundenschlaf (Engl. Version)

:uhoh::uhoh: