Thanks for your comments, whats_it_doing_now?

By way of clarification, I do not in any way wish to pour insult on BA cadets - without a doubt the vast majority are good guys/gals. I never applied because the scheme did not exist at the time I would have been competing for places. But yes, they are unbelievably lucky because there are huge numbers of other equally high quality wannabees out there for whom the road will be considerably harder. By the sound of things you are now a senior BA pilot, enjoying all the many wonderful priveleges that bestows. And best of luck to you! I am genuinely glad that there are people at the top of the tree doing very well - it is great for them personally and the industry as a whole.

I would be very disappointed to think that you or others who have benefitted from free flying training, the most secure job in the industry and virtually guaranteed promotion to the very top would be anything else other than exceedingly thankful. I am not one of those knocking BA - the standards are very high and there is a rigorous selection procedure (which I have never been through). Spare a thought for those other good guys/gals out there who are fantastic at their job but have had to fight every step of the way to get there, because for a variety of reasons were unable to take advantage of such a marvellous scheme as the BA cadet system.

By BA standards £21k is not a lot. I am sure you are aware, however, that there are many turboprop FOs out there getting paid less than that and they are also burdened with massive debt (£30-50k in many cases). They have no guaranteed future - the best they can hope for is to get a crack at one of the larger airlines after they have accumulated suitable hours. Even if they eventually get a look-in at BA, they will be years behind in the seniority list and still have big debts to pay off.

So there you have it. Please do not take this as any attack on BA cadets - they are undoubtedly good people. There are, however, lots of other equally good people who were just not that lucky. Spare a thought for them and the hard road they are travelling on. BA cadets are the most priveleged of all aviators in the country, and I hope they will never lose sight of just how fortunate they have been.

eezypilot - What is the point behind your posting? LTN man was reorting a newspaper article.

Ear2ground, you said in response to the Guvnor

"As 'hands-on groundstaff' I find your 'part of a team' comments laudable and agree to most of your points, however I realise that the only groups that can really cause major problems are both Flight, Cabin Crew and to a lesser extent the Engineers."

Firstly, can I say that the pilots deserve to earn a hell of a lot. I know what sort of training they go through (friends are pilots) and if I'm on a flight I want to make sure the best person possible is at the pointy end in the event of any problems.
Having said that, many people can cause major problems, not least the IT staff. BA had a lot of trouble in March/April and I believe a lot of highly skilled people got the system back running. Without pilots for a while, there are no flights. Without an IT system for the same period, there are not only no flights but no forward bookings, or almost anything else which generates revenue for an airline.

The worlds airlines have been and are still
gambling on a recession resulting in a
pilot surplus again ....

It isn't happening - even in the US - is
it ..... ?

ITGuy,

Please read my note again,I didn't say the Crew shouldn't get paid more than Groundstaff, my point was that in general Crew tend to higher awards and benefits throughout the airline industry compared to other groups. I have no axe to grind about that issue, its just the way it is.

As for IT systems and people causing disruption thru malice or just system crashes, I agree with you. I was overseas in March when the BA system crashed, my flight nightstopped and it took many days to get back to normal. The issue then was how could a major airline allow such work to go so badly wrong in the first place?

Yes, there are skilled people in all areas of the airline, from the Flight deck down but Mgmt are more wary of some groups than others.

ITguy,

Please read my note again, I wasn't saying Flight Crew shouldn't be paid more than Groundstaff, clearly they should. The point I was making was that in general, throughout the airline industry Flight Crew recieve better pay awards and benefits than groundstaff. A mate of mine flies and admits it himself and I have no axe to grind at all, I was just stating a widely held view.

As for IT staff/systems being able to cause chaos, I agree completely. The BA system crash last March proved that case easily. However, the question should be asked how can a major airline allow such a disaster to happen in the first place. I was overseas during the crash and the passengers and staff alike were aghast that BA could inflict such a public owngoal.

TwoTun, mate, for someone who has been flying since 1973 you seem to have a remarkably poor grasp of simple mathematics and English! :D

We're talking productivity (ie utilisation of assets) here. The likes of WN and FR manage to turn their aircraft around in between one third and half the time of majors using the same types. This means that the aircraft (and crews) spend less time on the ground where they cost money and more time in the air where they're earning money.

Of course, this only applies to short-haul - long haul is unaffected by this as CAP370 and its equivalents would apply (ie you couldn't do a round trip LHR-JFK with a subsonic aircraft no matter how fast you turned the aircraft round).

What do you spend the majority of your time on the flight deck doing, if it isn't monitoring systems? :eek: :rolleyes:

Hogwash - I think I've said it about three times already and I'll say it again for your benefit.

My arguments here are not about pay levels for pilots. I agree that pilots should be well paid. What I am saying, though, is that pilots should not assume that they should be given higher pay increases than the rest of their colleagues because of their job. It's a team effort and the slogan of the Three Musketeers should apply here - "All for one and one for all!"

Oh, and Hogwash? If you think that the restictions placed on flight crew where if you fail your medical, base or sim checks etc are onerous, then think about this: air traffic controllers are allowed three mistakes (aka 'deals') in their career. Furthermore, if you fail your medical, base or sim check then you're unfit to be at the controls of an aircraft carrying farepaying passengers - would you be comfortable with your family flying with someone that had failed their medical/sim/base check?

ITGuy - quite right ... especially when airlines are increasingly dependent on technology. I flew up to ATL from FLL on Saturday, and DL's DCS was down systemwide. It brought everything to a grinding halt - the ground staff had to use manual systems for the first time in whenever! BA's similar problem a few months back apparently cost the company over £60 million. That's the value of a used B777!!

Guvnor

What are you like? What is the point of posting that question in the CC forum?

As a bearer of doom and gloom for the economy why are you starting an airline at this time?

Its obvious why pilots are asking for more money- its because they are in demand, experienced ones anyway.So Easy paid 25K 'cause they didn't have to! You will find that out when and if you actually start recruiting.

Who else is recruiting...... er just BA, Britannia,Monarch,Air2000,JMC,Virgin,Easy,Ryanair,Go,DHL,Sin gapore,Emirates,Channex,most of the regionals and just about every other airline I can think of!

I don't profess to understand the money side but its clear you're not too hot on the operational aspects.By the way which accident was it that cited Cabin Crew Error as the main cause?

Govenor

Nobody said anything about being happy with sub-standard people flying, what was said was that a pilots license was on the line on those checks.

I am very aware of the ATC 'deals' and I think that controlers should get LOTS of money. :)

I totally agree with the team concept. If others in the industry believe that they should be paid more, I suggest that, they should apply the matter to their relevant union.

Hogwash: good points. Many out there simply can't stomach the fact that some airline jet jobs pay very well (only thanks to strong union solidarity, applied through collective bargaining), which in the US are often based on the competition's payscales/benefits, achieved through "pattern bargaining". This concept is followed by US airline mgmts on the other side of the bargaining table, no matter how vigorously they deny it while using the same old "one-trick pony" approach. All they do is trade notes with the competition. There are no real secrets in this business.

Regarding airline pay, just tell anyone who makes typically ignorant remarks about the potentially very good salaries "Sir, Brand X airlines is accepting applications, and is an equal opportunity employer". That usually works. The ball is now in their court.

Hang in there BA pilots!

Might be useful to put some flesh on the arguments. For my most recent days work I was paid £66 (average monthly salary including allowances divided by 30). I flew 465 people on 5 sectors into and out of one of Europes busiest 5 airports in an aircraft with 2 ADD's that affected our operation on each sector. We never stopped on the ground for longer than 35 minutes. Lunch was eaten on my lap during a descent brief, my evening meal eaten whilst I programmed the a/c for our final sector. The only time I left the flight deck was for 3 walk rounds. Total duty time 9 1/2 hours with not one break. This would be illegal if I worked in almost any other job. An average month for me consists of about 50-55 sectors, and around 70 hours flying time. Thats £36 per flight (or about £0.36 per passenger)

I would however be the first to tell you that I have the best job in the world. I love what I do and strive to be as good an operator as I can be. And yes I work for BA (mainline, not franchise).

Overpaid? My 2 closest friends work in middle to senior management positions and both earn more than 2 1/2 times my salary. You tell me.

(edited for spelling)

[ 17 July 2001: Message edited by: 52049er ]

Why doesn't everybody stop responding to idiotic contributions from people like Guvnor and Bus -something or other-'the pilot's friend!' They are teasers, and responding to such rubbish from wind-up merchants just amuses them and drags out more. When I start seeing them complaining about the excessive amounts of all our savings and investments creamed off by City types (are we all aware of the £44,000 social occasion by 5 or so bankers?), the excessive share options for underperforming airline managers, then I will believe they really want to reduce costs! In the meantime.....IGNORE!

TWoTun was quite correct when he said:

<<In B.A., some pilots have had to be taken off service because they've reached that 900 hour limit. >>

but did not say what happened next which none of you are going to believe!

The individuals who were removed from their trips had their pay deducted, the reason given being that they had deliberately made themselves unavailable for work!

Guvnor,

Here's a couple of thoughts for you:

First, we are not interested in what our pay rise is relative to other sections in BA. We don't give a damn whether we get a bigger percentage than cabin crew, loaders or IT staff. What we DO care about is getting paid the market rate for what we do, compared to similar 'flag carriers' ie comparing apples and apples as one of our managers continually says. We are lagging VERY badly and the causes and results of this have already been alluded to. If the cabin crew unions can negotiate a good deal for themselves then good luck to them, but meanwhile we are talking about the pilots' deal and all these extraneous arguments are irrelevant.

Second, the productivity in BA is very high and, fortunately, our union has some excellent data to coroborate this statement. What the company choses to do with the aircraft is up to them and any inneficencies in this regard can be addressed directly to the upper echelons of back-stabbers (sorry I meant BA mangement). We have, as you well know, the flight time limitations placed on us by the CAA and, so long as it is legal, we can basically fly to these limits...there are a few industrial agreements but none of these prevent aircraft being flown at night etc, instead of sitting on the ground. Utilisation of assets is a management task and is NOT an excuse for lack of profits on the part of pilots.

As for being JUST a systems operator, you have absolutely NO idea what being a BA pilot is about and I must reiterate; you don't have a friggin' clue. We are more aware of our part in customer service than any ideas you might have and our previous Director of Flight Ops held our achievments in this arena up to the Board and proved we are worth more than every penny we get. Next time the passengers are all on board and the aircraft goes tech and you personally go row by row through the cabin to address individual concerns, organise a new aircraft and lounge for the passengers because the ground staff had had be taken away on other duties, sort out new flight plans, get transport arranged for the pax, organise your team to prepare the new aircraft to reduce delaying them any further, escort the pax to the lounge and help the 'old dear' up the jetty as they can't get a wheelchair to her soon enough and then, having completed all the related paperwork, get the flight away safely, with minimal delay come and talk to me about systems operators and button pressing. You'd be liable to end up with a VERY sore nose.

Enough.

Pontius.

PS: you've probably been asked this before, but do W and anchor meen anything to you?

Outstanding yet again Pontius - that'll be the nail being hit on the head then ;)

Great post Pontius. I don't bother to reply to the resident PPRuNe Tristar Worshipping Airline Tycoon, but I'm glad you did it so well!

I'd like to make a couple of points if I may in a relax controlled manner.
Firstly, very well put Pontius - you just be careful or there will be no nail left to hit!
Secondly, since people keep drawing parallels between IT and pilots how about this one. When there was a shortage of IT people what did BA do to attract them? Offered them great T & C's The old supply and demand thing. :confused:
Thirdly, regarding the Cadet Pilot thing - the quoted start salary is pretty close, if you then deduct the training repayment every month for 5 years and the lower salary compared to a DEP, the 'free' training becomes anything but free, infact you come pretty close to paying the whole cost - about £60,000. :eek:

Thats true largejet, and a little dicky bird told me that BA got the training contract for substantially less than that. Oxford certainly don't seem to be making financial leaps and bounds because of it anyway.

Sorry Guvnor but no, I don't see where you're coming from at all. You come out with the same rubbish every time and you are fundementally wrong. If I'd wanted to become cabin crew/tug driver or dispatcher I could have saved myself a lot of trouble (and money!).

I suppose that you think a nurse or hospital porter should be entitled to the same remuneration and/or increases as interns (FO equivalent to our industry), consultants (Captains) or surgeons (Sim trainers), just because you can't run a hospital without either or!!!!

It may be that our profession cannot be said to enjoy the same noble standing as those of the medical profession BUT on the other hand their industry is far more forgiving when it comes to making mistakes that cost people lives.

Face it Guv, however much you bleet the inescapable fact of the matter is, that we are a rarer commodity than most other airline staff, and therefore can screw belligerent wannabe managers like you for as much as we like. And God it feels good to see you squirm with helplessness!!!

It is amazing the way these ignorant people still come out and get so angry when pilots ask for more pay. But I think the main problem is simply that the vast majority of laypeople have no idea what it entails to become a professional air transport pilot.

A huge proportion of pilots end up spending a small fortune over many years to get that valuable license. They have to spend hour after hour up in the air building up their flight time, take exam after exam, then spend a fortune buying a type rating and then finally taking your CV and sending to airline after airline. If you're lucky to be chosen, then it's medicals, nerve wracking sim checks and finally your line check, all in the presence of people who will have no qualms in failing you if you make any kind of mistake.

And if you've had the good fortune to be chosen as a cadet, it's not all that easy either. Written tests, psyche tests, interviews with grumpy line pilots, idiotic group sessions where people have to sit around and build the eiffel tower out of coke cans and then more interviews. Then, when finally sitting in the right seat, they work for low wages while having to pay back some of the training cost. Right through a pilots career it's a constant examination to check whether he/she is still up to the job.

You see it's just not correct to compare flight crew with cabin crew or groundstaff or office clerks etc. All are valuable of course and are vital to the smooth running of the airline, but these other workers did not have to go through the same rigours and training that the plots have. And at the end of the day, when you properly analyse it, the pilots responsibility is huge, taking into your care 10-400 pax is a big deal. Being prepared to deal with inumerable outside factors that can happen on a flight requires thorough training, which takes time and money.

I've always believed that the main problem that the pilot community has encountered when disputes arise, is they just don't put their case forward well enough to the media. And for that the blame must lie with the pilot unions. They have to start getting better PR people to address the media and give their side of the story. If the public could read 52049er's post in the press or hear about in the media they would be alot more sympathetic. For the amount of work he did, £66 is a very low reward considering the amount of money he would have made for his airline that day.

Finally, noone can tell me that BA pilots don't earn their money. I was travelling FCO-LHR last month and the flight was delayed due to ATC. The captain came out and went to his passengers (in the departure lounge!) and explained to them the reasons for the delay. He spoke to all of them, adressing them politely and apologising all the time, even though it wasn't his fault. He left a lasting impression on the passengers that day, how can you value the goodwill he generated? Those passengers would have told their families/friends about the excellent service.

These fliers not only deserve what they're paid but deserve a lot more as well. And that goes for all pilots. I would place no more worth on a BA flier then one with FR or Eazy etc.

"SYSTEMS MONITOR" is becoming the buzz word for pilots. Flight Engineers are one endangered species slowly following the path of Navigators and Radio Operators. Technology will soon overtake the role of airline pilots. And the higher the crew cost, the higher the Tech pressure to replace us!

In order to comprehend this trend one has to adjust the conventional thought processes, including the premises that: Large jets cannot safely be flown without highly skilled pilots and that passengers would never board a jet without two pilots at the controls.

CAT-IIIC Autoland and any other autoflight profile requires more systems programing knowhow than aerodynamics/aviator knowledge.

Twenty years from now computer and nano technologies will have more than doubled in sophistication. Our traditional "hands-on" role as pilots will be diminished if not altogether eliminated and replaced by Systems Monitors. Believe it.

If you have any doubts about the future decline of our profession, catch up on the pilotless aircraft the military has been perfecting over the past few years: Start with the "Global Hawk." It's a UAV about the size of a small bizjet with a single turbofan that can fly across the pond, linger over Europe six hours and return without refueling. And guess what? In one branch of the U.S. military the ground based remote "system operators" are all non pilots.

I'm an airline pilot, but I'm a realist too.

Cheers. :cool:

Pontius - I am standing applauding in my own living room. Spot on.

As for the BA Cadet costs - its a non-too-commercial secret in the industry that the inital OATS deal was for £42,000 per person. Most schools have lowered charges in the last 5 years as well... But remember there is a JOC course and line training plus extra training sectors for Cadets on that figure.

Everyone I have spoken to is rooting for the BA guys big time. What you set today filters down to the rest of us tomorrow. I was suprised to find that I am significantly better off as a EGSS low cost FO than I would be as a EGKK BA 3 year FO in terms of monthly net take home pay when we compared payslips a week or so back...

Take no prisoners guys,

WWW

Your point is very well made Glueball. People will no doubt scoff at your comments and say that this scenario will never happen, but of course it more than likely will. As to when the first fully loaded unmanned airplane will take off, who knows, but as you have pointed out, the tecnology is not just in the near future, it's here and now.

For the present though, the pilots are here and they must fight what they believe they are worth.

N. Fantastic, Pontius and others. You described the profession so well: but it is one in which we are often married to our airline. Due to pension/health insurance (US) requirements, after a few years (without being independently wealthy) most of us can't go through revolving doors at different companies like many in upper/middle mgmt: we are committed (bound, as in tied to a tree) to our companies, with no golden parachutes.

Our unions have often done a lousy job of explaining the realities of our jobs to the ignorant laymen. Others (even former DC-8 line pilots, no nicknames mentioned) insisting on appearing to be ignorant.

If my company decides to experiment with the more productive linear route system as Southwest does, in contrast to the inefficient hub and spoke system, they certainly won't ask for my advice on this. Most US airlines chose to stick with this very inefficient concept.

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

Personally, the more that BA pilots get the better and for this one reason:

the more money they get the more tax they pay!

The more tax they pay the more money our government has available to provide more doctors, nurses, teachers classrooms etc, etc. And who provides the funds in the fist place? Here's the best bit!

Not the British taxpayer, not the general public but the flying public!

All those people who clog up the roads driving to the airport; the same ones who sit in aeroplanes which create noise and increase pollution, etc, etc.....

I'm all for as much money as possible being extracted from the air travelling public being given to the pilots who can then give it to HMG!

Go for it chaps!

To hot wings(on page 2),

I also think that we have decent management at SAS, however, make no mistake, we made them give us the payraise. They wouldn't have done it if they didn't have to!!! On the other hand, now that the negotiations are over, I am, as always, prepared to work hard and help the company since it seemed that they negotiated in good faith(at least towards the end).

It's a two way street.

:cool: :cool:

[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Ramrise ]

Pontious
I did like your post, but you obviously have never been on my a/c when it's gone tech.
It always seems to be the tech crew that leg it first. ;)
Now I appreciate that the pilot group will deck the whole operation but what will happen when the engineering group start a fight; will they get support from you or will, as happened in the past, will the pilot's bend over backwards to keep the operation going??
Interestingly the engineers were the only group to have negotiated an agreement in the proposed equity stake, tied in to the last pay deal, something that the pilot's I understand now want a bigger slice of.
Interesting times :D :D

Pontius, well said mate.

This is not a gripe, but it isn't just BA that do all that 'outstanding' Customer Service stuff. Try working for a charter airline, where you have to do all that every day ! Incidently I was positioning back home with BA the other day and found the poor old F/O wandering through the cabin explaining to am American lady passenger that because of the hour slot delay she was going to miss her onward connection to the states :rolleyes: (Bloody obvious I know, the F/O knew it, all the pax knew it). Personally, I and all the passengers close by found this extreemely excrutiating and highly embarassing for him. We were all wonering why ? :confused:

In contrast, in my arline the captain would have explained to all the pax at the same time over the PA, whilst I would be on the mobile to our operations or Brussels flow control direct, in order to re-file a different route. The cabin crew would address other passenger concearns directly.

I just sat back and thought, well at least I am getting paid 17,000 more than this poor sod and I will get my command 10 years earlier. :D

Anyway sorry to dribble on. Good luck in the pay negotiations, you lot deserve it.

I would just like to wish the BA guys all the best in their forthcoming pay negotiations and ask them to bear in mind one thing.

Eddington started the rot at Cathay in the mid 90's and the guy screwing the pilots in HKG at the moment is Tony Tyler. TT is believed to be on his way to BA in the none too distant future so you had better make these negotiations count.

Another thought, the share options that Rod was given the other day, could they be an incentive to screw the pilot body for whatever he can?

Food for thought.

just a reply to largejet on P4 who said
"Secondly, since people keep drawing parallels between IT and pilots how about this one. When there was a shortage of IT people what did BA do to attract them? Offered them great T & C's The old supply and demand thing. "

As far as I'm aware, BA IT people have never been offered "great T & C's" - certainly no better than any other BA employee. When exactly was this offer? Also, BA IT people would like to compare apples and apples (as Pontius says), but know that IT people can earn a hell of a lot more outside of an airline if they chose to leave.
Many chose to stay because they enjoy the work and the benefits, not the pay!
As I've said before, I think the pilots deserve to earn a hell of a lot of money, and good luck for any negotiations. Having said that, they need to bear in mind that many sections of the airline feel the same way about their own departments and aren't always successful. Everyone is on the same team at the end of the day. :)

LTN MAN .YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL PILOT SO STICK TO PASS SERVICES.UK PILOTS ARE GENERALLY UNDERVALUED BY UK COMPANIES AND SHOULD BE PROPERLY REWARDED FOR THEIR EXPERTISE.SO LTN MAN STICK YOUR NOSE ELSEWHERE. :mad:

Hello Peeps, sorry for the lack of replies but it's that old wolf, door and keeping the former from the latter syndrome.

Well, I feel quite embarrassed by this 'praise' for my post....maybe I should go into management. Okay, only kidding.

But to address a couple of points:

Gas Path,

I assume form your message you're an engineer (a much appreciated 'race'in my mind). I would never deliberately try and foil another group's attempts to improve their pay and conditions and I hope I made it clear when I said, that whatever you guys can get, then good luck to you all. What I also said, though, is that this is a fight for the pilots and all else smacks of herring rouge. I recognise that our terms and conditions can and do affect other departments within the airline, but we are trying to get away from this whole, stupid, corporate rate thing. BA would much rather we didn't because that would mean paying us according to our worth outside the airline and that would mean a pay rise...shock, horror. This is ALL we are going for; our Market Rate.

You comment that it is the tech crew that are first to leg it off a u/s aircraft. That may be the case sometimes, but it may be that they've been given another flight to crew or have to go and prep the next aircraft etc. I'm not, for one moment, saying we are all perfect all the time, but we do try and our customer service far exceeds the levels put about by 'button pushing' accusers such as the Guvnor. We all recognise the hugely important role we have to play in the arena of making dosh for the company and most of us try very hard to do so. I hate people talking about the 'Big Picture' stuff, but maybe when those pilots do rush off there is a very good reason...and, believe me, it's not normally related to going home.

Invalid Delete,

Been there and done that, so I do know what you're talking about. Some of us do have experiences from outside BA, but I know that spoils the 'Nigel' image, so I won't dwell on it.

I think the Old Lady story is quite a good example of customer service. Yeah, all the pax knew there was a delay and most of them could figure out the implications of that delay, but could the ol' dear? I think treating a passenger as an individual and going to explain to her what will happen when she arrives at LHR/LGW and who to speak to in Flight Connections an excellent response to a delay and far from embarassing (I've been in the cabin too many times and survived the near lynchings to get too upset by some smiling people).

I have to admit (and this is without knowing whether the Captain was otherwise disposed) I would have done it myself rather than sending my RHS colleague. I'm sure there are good reasons for the Captain not doing so.

And finally (as they say). It's good to see that you would have been proactive in trying to improve your slot, but do you not think the guys were trying to do likewise? We don't have the aircraft mobile phones (a Godsend when we got them in my charter outfit) but we do have the luxury of a 'proper' operations base at most of our destinations. We do the same things as you do with Flow Control, but via the company freq..and you know how much better those people in ops can deal with those situations (still doesn't beat the bottle of whisky to ATC in Rhodes though. ;) ).

Alright, I've rambled on for long enough, again. At the end of the day, we are not being greedy, we just want similar renumeration to the equivalent airlines in Europe, who are doing exactly the same job. It truly is a shame that we are shackled with seniority numbers et al, because deregulated movement around Europe could certainly force BA to sit up and take note. I, for one, though am not going to allow the arrogant managers in BA to think they have me trapped. I'll do everything I can to help BALPA negotiate a decent deal and if they don't, then I'm off to warmer climes...with better Em..rates.

Toodle oo,

Pontius

Guvnor,

When the alarm clock goes off, perhaps you can go back to being a postman.

Your fish hooks still catch the occasional new poster but I will still lurk at the back of this pond and know what you really are...

A Hypocrite and a Fool.

I said it before and I'll say it again. The only man I know who referred to himself as 'The Guvnor' was Paul Ince. His IQ was comparable to yours.

Goodbye!

It is quite extraordinary how many folks on this thread are saying "..good luck, go for it, it filters down...", but on other threads the CX guys are getting lambasted with criticism and pilots saying they want to take their jobs. ( I'm for both sets of pilots IN BOTH AIRLINES, btw ).

The 2 disputes are very much related; I guarantee that Red Oddington is rooting for and communicating with his former colleagues in CX management, both carriers are in OneWorld. The CX UK payscales are supposed to be related to the BA ones. If the CX guys win their dispute, the results will also benefit the other UK drivers. (Pull factors would rise, tempting ship-jumping to CX, after the dust settles ).

I agree with the above commentators who say that the UK pilots are falling behind in pay. Too true. So support your CX colleagues, 'cos they're fighting in no small part for a lot of you as well. If they win, many carriers would have to reconsider their packages, especially those employing expats, and those with multi-tiered payscales.

My three cents worth...(inflation...)

Well observed Rraamjet. Sadly any mention of the CX dispute brings responses from either pilots suffering from envy or management pretending to be pilots. I am certain that the same thing will happen once the pay negotiations at BA turn nasty. As with CX, BA pilots will quietly retire to their own private forum and leave the imposters and the ignorant to comment in public.