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Kid transmits instructions told to him by father Father broadcasts telling the aircraft (in a joking way) what is going on, which means he was plugged in at the time. Show him the door...pronto. |
I have been flying in and out of JFK for over 20 years, as I'm sure many of you have as well. Do you really think that the supervising controller was out of the loop on this? Do you really believe the local controller was not plugged in and ready to handle any possible contingency? I can tell you that the JFK controllers are expert at what they do. They move a lot of metal with speed and safety. Yes, they talk too fast for most of us but they know their jobs.
The kid was doing fine. There was no compromise of safety here. Instead of grooming a future controller, or pilot, the media have now jumped all over a nonstory and probably traumatized the kids for life, not to mention running down a fine controller. I used to let the kids fly with me when they were young, hell, I used to let the F/As fly on empty legs. With proper supervision these are all non events. Some of you need to relax and chill out a little and take that ramrod out of your arse. |
global warrior writes: I would suggest that FOX news go to some of the places on the planet where safety is compromised daily by inept controllers that are actually licenced by their countries regulating authority... Dad should have thought-through things, but even so, he conducted things well. sdflyer writes: And an Aeroflot pilot once let his daughter, and then his son, sit in left seat of an Airbus in cruise flight over Siberia once. The consequence of this piece of irresponsible and unprofessional behavior is aviation history. Apples to beluga. Well-behaved and well-articulated kids under the direction of their doting dad, repeating what he tells them to, speaking to aircraft on the ground, after the situation has been explained to pilots involved. Versus letting a child sit at the controls of a revenue flight without adequate supervision and a lack of attention paid to the flight of the aircraft. IIRC, the flight crew didn't notice that the A/P had been kicked off-line by pressure put against the controls. Not the children's fault at all - and nothing would have happened if the crew had been ahead of the airplane instead of behind it. Not comparable at all. In no way. Completely unspinnable. Joe Sixpack won't buy the comparison, neither will working pros. So stop peddling it. Or, become a FOX news aviation consultant. And really, aren't there more appropriate examples to use? Can someone dig up a relevant comparison in which a "guest controller" actually caused some REAL issue? Big kudos to ei-flyer for this: A lot of you are forgetting one important fact - you ATCers do not control the aircraft, we do. I certainly hope any flight I board is controlled through a good pilot / ATC relationship - but if I had to pick one or the other, I'll always go with the dudes / dudettes up in the pointy end. Yoke/stick and thrust levers in hand, their lives in the balance as well, windscreens to see out of, yadda-yadda. MPN11 writes: New thread ... "Sandefjord in the News" "Stray moose issues landing clearance ... " http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif Valuable: boguing writes: I'm going to contribute to this thread in the hope that the Authorities read it before taking any action vis the controller. At the age of 8 I had the nous to arrange a school wide collection for the Aberfan disaster. We raised more than any other school. Didn't occur to the adults. At 11 I was driving the winch, towing gliders into the air - unattended. At 12 driving Dad's car around the airfield and towing to/from the hangar. I read pretty well too. I would suggest (as a parent) that a child knows what's what after about 6. And because they are soaked in the local discipline (one that I remember is to look around the field before crossing. If I see an approaching glider - Stand Still). I flew launch to landing at 14. Dad in the back. Any bright child (an atco's child will be at least 50% bright) will know when to say "Daddy, what do I do now?" I'd certainly trust my youngest to clear me for t/o over anybody else. It seems that the controller under fire is A) good at his job, and B) can trust his kids to do exactly what he tells them to do. This is refreshing, so many parents can't (or don't) have much influence over their children. Could some of the "heat" in this issue be because of that? Are some of the "roll the heads" posters perhaps a bit jealous of the dad / kid relationship demonstrated here? married a canadian writes: To all you other valid atcos out there who think safety was compromised. What actions could the child have done that would have caused a DIRECT danger to any flight. No far fetched scenarios either given that the father was plugged in next to him and can overide any transmission. What if- what if -what if -doesn't work when you consider the few facts we know. So far, we've compared this to handing scalpels to kids in an operating room. We've compared it to letting kids sit unattended at the controls of a revenue flight. We've mentioned how some n'er-do-wells will "spoof" ATC comms with flights. Frankly, FOX news was very successful in dragging this porkchop-on-a-string of a story past a pack of hungry dogs. When I put my big butt on one of your planes, here is what concerns me: -- Dead-tired pilots -- Totally distracted ATC -- "Unreasonably" stretched maintenance issues, like MD tailplane jackscrews -- Unknown issues, like 777/RR thrust rollbacks, pitot icing across all makes, and issues like the 737 rudder PCU -- Lunatics willing to light their happy parts afire for Allah -- The general "snap factor" induced by the stressful environments surrounding commercial air transit, which causes people to try to access the cockpit, open doors, or assault cabin crew -- The general lack of knowledge which sees a flight with an orthodox Jew as a security threat Really, honestly, worrying about the issue at hand is pointless, as there are so many *real* issues to pursue and fix. But it is fascinating to read all the different perspectives and try to understand them. I'll ask this again - so far, it hasn't been answered. What can be done to turn this into a "positive" for the industry? Can we shake-off the urge to bicker long enough to be constructive? RR |
Stew lands plane
Or, the PanAm Captain who, sometime in the early 70's, allowing a stewerdess to land the plane! :eek:(You heard correctly). Now that's avaition history. (And yes - it was still perfectly PC to call the pretty young things helping out in cabin "Stew" back in the day. But I digress...
Turns out the Stew was rated, if I recall, and really greased it on (a 727). Anyway, where was I going with this?...Oh, yeah! Now I remember: Though the incidents differ obviously, the fact of the matter is that the Supervisor allowing a 9 year old to clear flights at JFK on the radio(!) and the Captain allowing a Stew to land his aircraft on a revenue flight both exhibited spectactulalry poor judgement. Judgement that I, personally, do not want to see in the cockpit - nor in the control tower.:= My 2 centavos. |
Wow, what a load of tosh! A lot of you are forgetting one important fact - you ATCers do not control the aircraft, we do. I'm sure the weather was CAVOK, in which case take-off or no take-off clearance, it's down to us whether we pile on the coals and rumble off down the runway or not. The other morning I was cleared to land at TRF while a Dash 8 was touching down... I had to correct the controller and the whole episode resulted in a missed approach... I wasn't impressed. Sorry for the thread drift. |
The JetBlue crew who accepted the takeoff clearance should at least be disciplined by the company for accepting a clearance that was obviously not from an ATC controller.
What if someone using a HAM radio had issued the clearance??? The JetBlue crew should at least have questioned the clearance rather than accepting it with a cowboy attitude!!! |
As being "old fashioned" from Europe and very conservative in respect to safety: I would like to see the reactions from US pilots, if this would happen in a similar busy airport in Europe like Frankfurt, Heathrow or so on. We would hear from terrorist attack over European dummies up to "we have to learn them flying".
It is, in legal terms talking, a criminal act of "endangering air transport", which can be sentenced in most European countries up to 5 years in prison. Sorry folks, no excuses, no talking about "no danger had been at this moment"; the controller should be never ever allowed to enter a tower for the rest of his life. We have rules and we have to stick with them. |
A bit cynical to read someone from Vienna write about "having to stick by the rules". Last time the Austrians vehemently did so, the rules themselves were criminal and Europe is still showing the effects from that episode.
Rules are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. I would not trust anybody who advocates strict adherence to rules just because they happen to be the rules, to operate any safety critical machinery for their obvious lack of critical thinking capability. As was said before, the ATCO was not operating in a vacuum so more than 1 experienced professional had looked at te situation and decided there was no risk to air safety, and it was allowed 2 days in a row, further reinforcing the fact that it was never deemed a problem or a risk by those operating and controling. Tha fall out by making it public suddenly made it a PR risk so the guy will be held accountable for the egg on the FAA's face, in typical modern "management" style. We are at risk of becoming incapable of seeing the real risks because we are blinded by perceived risks. Blind obedience never worked throughout history, and in the current mediacracy (rule by the media, feeding of mediocre intelligence and knowledge levels of the uninformed and uninterested public) facts are less important than appearances. Shame on us for allowing it to become this way. Like has been said before, I sincerely hope my kids will choose any career as long as it is not in aviation. Everything that used to be exciting and interesting is increasingly being "sanitised" for the purpose of appearances and PR, not because it is the right thing to do. Safety has become a meaningless word, just like freedom is becoming.. Everybody was in the loop about what was going on, and was able to voice concerns if they had them. They did not and therefore felt safe and secure, and happy to make it a fun and safe day for everybody involved. True, it was not according to the letter of the rules but it was certainly in the spirit of what used to make this a great industry and career. Let the media storm blow over and let the guy get back to work. And his supervisor too. |
DO YOU MEAN THE STEWARDESS WHO'S FLOWN SEVERAL TYPES AND EVEN TEST FLIGHTS and was an experienced DC-3 pilot,...ohhh maybe that was TWA didn't giver her a pilot job 'cuz she was just too cute:rolleyes:
Wonder what Betsy Coleman could have accomplished if her stick did not freeze ==Betsy Coleman Famous barnstormer:ok:,.......she was black too:zzz: |
garp,
Very true, which is why I made a point of assuming it was CAVOK when writing my post. I don't wish to give the wrong impression, that I have some sort of qualm with controllers, absolutely not. My point was - ultimately we, as pilots, control the aeroplane(s). Surely the ATCO in question wouldn't have allowed this to happen if it were busy IMC. Therefore, good weather, quiet traffic, I don't see a problem, because at the end of the day, we will not accept a clearance if there's any chance it could endanger our aircraft, and that's a responsibility of all pilots. Even if it was heavy IMC, that's when the radio fulfills it's secondary function - as a spatial orientation aid. In my experience, most things in life sound or seem much worse when spoken (or written) about than when you're actually there and in control of the situation. |
To S76HEAVY:
I am not understanding, why you mix politics and aviation. Also, I would appreciate, if you not put all people from Austria on the side of a regime, which had been gone before, for example, I had been born. Leave this ****, otherwise I must remind that in the USA rassism had been legal upt o the 70's. Lets stay on the aviation side and this is clearly breaking the rules. Nothing else. |
What a load of tosh by a load of people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Ergo, father was an idiot. Show him the door...pronto. |
it was an unfortunate error of judgement. The guy does not deserve the sack. That is simply ridiculous. Too many perfect and sanctimonious posters on this thread.
Which is why i no longer believe in the concept of professional juries. I would much prefer to take my chances with the 12 men good and true!!!! |
FEHERTO: Since you don't know my nationality or residence, please refrain from jumping to conclusions.
I was merely calling attention to the attitude that was sadly adopted by millions of people at the time; that rules must be obeyed without questioning, either out of blind faith or fear of reprisals. And since you give your location as being Vienna, I would have expected some knowledge of where such blind obedience can lead and how it comes into existence, even in good people. Blind obedience begins by not questioning seemingly small issues of loss of control and power, and by allowing "authorities" to dictate the small stuff; after all it doesn't do any harm, does it? And before you know it, all critical thought is considered hostile, unpatriotic and especially in our chosen profession, as "unsafe". Guilty until proven innocent, by the way. I wear my 4 bars in the knowledge that when push comes to shove, I am the one who has to come up with answers that can and will be scrutinised by the deskjockeys and bean counters who demand blind obedience to their rules, even if there are no or no appliccable rules for a given situation. That means I need to practice my critical thinking and decisionmaking, and accept responsibility for them. I make mistakes every working day and I do my utmost not to make the fatal one. I work on a basis of trust between my coworkers and me, and trust in their propfessionalism and capabilities as they trust in mine. Blind obedience of rules has nothing to do with professionalism, capabilities and trust and everything with CYA. To me, the "incident" which is being blown all out of proportion, happened because there was trust in capabilities and professionalism between ATCO and supervisor, and everybody else on that floor for that matter. And that includes the cockpit crews as well. The disciplinary action is all about CYA. You choose your side of the fence, I have chosen mine. And it has f*ck all to do with nationality. |
garp, Very true, which is why I made a point of assuming it was CAVOK when writing my post. I don't wish to give the wrong impression, that I have some sort of qualm with controllers, absolutely not. My point was - ultimately we, as pilots, control the aeroplane(s). Surely the ATCO in question wouldn't have allowed this to happen if it were busy IMC. Therefore, good weather, quiet traffic, I don't see a problem, because at the end of the day, we will not accept a clearance if there's any chance it could endanger our aircraft, and that's a responsibility of all pilots. Even if it was heavy IMC, that's when the radio fulfills it's secondary function - as a spatial orientation aid. In my experience, most things in life sound or seem much worse when spoken (or written) about than when you're actually there and in control of the situation. |
To approach from a different angle, the question of how this violated the rules...
Clearly, it is a violation for an unlicensed, uncertified individual to make an ATC radio transmission. It seems to me that the intent of that rule is to prevent an individual with dishonorable intentions from causing a catastrophe, and to prevent an individual with honorable intentions, but lacking the necessary abilities, from causing a catastrophe. I have to wonder whether an individual capably relaying a valid clearance from a qualified and attentive controller was considered much of a factor. Perhaps, perhaps not. Certainly it won't end the debate, but it calls into question whether this violation of the letter of the law was in fact a violation of the intent of the law. I'll ask this again - so far, it hasn't been answered. What can be done to turn this into a "positive" for the industry? For the FAA to react in a measured and appropriate manner, with respect to not just the letter of the law, but to its intent, and for the FAA to react to the impact this incident had on the "safe, orderly, and expiditious flow of air traffic", not to the impact of sensationalized media reportage, thus proving that those in charge have a firm grip on reality. Probably ain't gonna happen though... |
crowded skies
Let`s not forget the July 2002 mid air Flights 2937 and DHL 611 over Swiss airspace. This loss was particularly tragic as it involved so many children victims. When the aerial office is covering the ground at 8miles every minute all involved, be it on the ground or in the air need to be 100% on the job and not entertaining kids. There is no room for error. The job of ATC is just as serious and critical as everyone involved in the industry. The bottom line is safety, nothing can be allowed to compromise it.
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Ergo, father was an idiot. Show him the door...pronto. S76Heavy (and many others in the same vein) I'm right beside you. Large chunks of our world seem to have lost all common sense, sometimes I am very grateful to be the wrong side of fifty. |
[QUOTE]Let`s not forget the July 2002 mid air Flights 2937 and DHL 611 over Swiss airspace. This loss was particularly tragic as it involved so many children victims. When the aerial office is covering the ground at 8miles every minute all involved, be it on the ground or in the air need to be 100% on the job and not entertaining kids. There is no room for error. The job of ATC is just as serious and critical as everyone involved in the industry. The bottom line is safety, nothing can be allowed to compromise it./QUOTE]
I think the point is that its only a question of opinion as to whether "safety" was compromised. Those that believe it was was, want to hang the guy, no trial, just hang him 'cause he compromised safety and had exercised poor judgement. OK Fine. So by the same token, it would appear that every TCAS RA should result in either the Pilot, the controller or both being fired because safety has been compromised possibly due to poor judgement on behalf of one or the other. Not how i want aviation to go but hey........ there are people with all sorts of opinions. |
Is this not worthy of a Poll?
something along the lines. ATPL/CPL holder: I have a problem with this situation. ATPL/CPL holder: I have no problem with this situation. ATCO: I have a problem with this situation ATCO: I have no problem with this situation All the rest: I have a problem with this situation All the rest: I have no problem with this situation |
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