"I don't believe he should have been jailed for life or any pilot for that matter"

Why not? What about a truckdriver doing 130 km/h on a village road crashing into a schoolyard killing 21 kids? Shouldn't he be jailed either?

Mistakes and misfortunes should not be punished by jail. This was not a mistake. The guy should be in jail.

I stand by this statement, (not for life anyway) the problem in some Asian countries is the loss of face issue, which does not fit with proper CRM training or CRM is not regarded seriously as it should be in the training departments by some Asian airlines. Sadly it is a culture thing, in Indonesia the Captain still has the last say and many FOs simply allow this to happen.

I did say

Quote:

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What he did on that approach was outrageous.

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I feel in this case the co pilot could have done more to avert the situation if both men had a better understanding or belief in the purpose of CRM in the first place.

The second issue, many strips in Indonesia still to this day have below standard over-run areas at both ends of the runways, (below acceptable western standards) some with substantial drops into separate fenced off farming land hampering quick rescue attempts by firetrucks etc.

I can't give statistics on how many "go a rounds" are recorded in Indonesia but I suspect much lower than say in the West or more developed Asian aviation countries with much better attitudes to pilot training cultures and CRM.

Having said that, I do respect your point expat400 but remind you of the tragic crash of SQ flight 006 at Taipei airport although this was a take-off incident should this Captain be jailed for life? He has to live with it for the rest of his life.
Rushing to Die: The crash of Singapore Airlines flight 006 - Part One, Airline Safety, Airline crashes

TIMA9X

Do you seriously think these two accidents are comparable?

Sure I do, It's a case of pilots not talking to each other! We could quote many approach incidents and take-off incidents until our faces turn blue.
I live in Asia for many years of my life working in and around aviation.

I agree 100 percent with this statement, who would not?

"But I think in this Garuda case the Captain was unstable" the FO could have done more and the Airline has dropped the bucket on him (the Captain) alone with out looking at its CRM training procedures or itself as an airline who employed this fellow in the first place. Also there were some senior Australian officials killed in the horrible crash, so the Indonesian courts made out that they were making an example of this Captain. I am not surprised that the decision was over turned, sadly that's the way it works in that country.
I say, should this captain be in command in the first place, what was his history leading up to his madness on that fatal approach. Some rumours say he did some other odd things beforehand that was no taken further because of the aviation culture that prevents whistle blowers being listened too. That's the way it is in Indonesia.

In Asia "loss of face" is a very important factor of many accidents over recent years, the pilots just keep at it on approach even if the FO suggests there is a problem, as I said before the Captain is the Captain and what he says is final.

The SQ thing was a combination of errors by the pilots and the Airport itself, this I agree with, but no one wanted to admit that any party was at fault. This goes for that Garuda pilot as well. The difference is SQ did something about it, adjusting their training methods and took it seriously.

I still wonder if Garuda has completely sorted out the problem, but I trust they have, so do we all!

Think about it, the BA 38 777 incident at EGLL, those guys did a fantastic job, the Captain allowing the FO to keep flying the AC whilst he tried to sort the problem. I say this Indonesian fellow would probably want to take the controls immediately.

Sure this guy should be doing more time behind bars, or in a mental institution, but that just shows us the difference between airlines with good training procedures including CRM and the the ones who lag behind in this field.

expat 400 you make good points, and I agree with your reasons, but at least we know that this guy wont fly again!!

Indonesian Air Safety
 

I am sure that Garuda have made enough improvements to get themselves off the EU black list for their International routes and I wish them well.I have flown them many times before, but that was a long time ago now. Yes the Indonesian authorities have grounded many airlines because of safety concerns and quite frankly not before time.
JetPhotos.Net Photo » PK-KKV (CN: 27284) AdamAir Boeing 737-33A by Mahathir Mohamed Salleh

Well I live in Thailand and to some extent agree with you, but BKP Bangkok Air is a well managed airline, Thai NOK and Thai Air Asia are doing a good job, and I feel safe flying with them locally. The bad ones have slowly weeded themselves out. The now defunct Phuket Air and the rumoured struggling One TWO GO are not having a good time since that MD80 crash in Phuket.

This is also true in Thailand too, but to a lesser degree.

If you are happy with Garuda, I see no reason to stop flying with them, no doubt they have sorted out many of their problems.

I think it is fair to say that all the Garuda pilots currently flying are more aware of the airlines reputation and want to make sure that they do a good job. That 737 flight GA 200 crash in Yogyakarta caused by bad airman ship was the catalyst for changes of attitude towards air safety in Indonesia.

Well said Swiss Cheese, I concur Sir!

TIMA9X

You have some valid points about the accidents but I still disagree that they can be compared with regards to the punishment of the Captain.

If:

the Captain on SQ006 had known that the runway was blocked by bulldozers and still chosen to use it thinking "I'll be able to lift off before them"

and

the FO had several times told the Captain not to use the runway

and

a warning system continously had warned about the wrong runway and the Captain had ignored it

then these two accidents had been comparable. Not really what happened, right?

Really bad
 

I don't think that there is an Indonesian airline I would ever fly with!

When the police questioned him he said something about not being able to pull it up. Was there a mechanical problem with the plane also? If so then its all his fault?