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JW411,
Whilst I don't dispute the experiences you've posted, there is the other side of the coin to consider. For many pilots (I'm speaking from my own experience here), learning RT is one of the hardest disciplines to master. Thus, when the chips are down, the pilot is under stress, and effective RT is one of the first things to go by the wayside. The longer it takes for an ATCO to ascertain what the problem is, the longer it will be before we can render any help required. Besides, there is more to the MPL than this. I just queried it because of that aspect of my professional interest. And Lost man standing is right that even in the sim, there isn't much realism - more of an ideal. |
Foxy Loxy:
I note from your profile that you are an ATCO. Can I please ask you what experience you have of talking to other ATC units on a global basis from the cockpit of an aeroplane? I managed 46 years. Things have improved enormously since I started. A lot of readers out there will remember the old days before SSB when we were required to monitor HF on AM throughout the flight (no SELCAL then) and also the difficulties of communicating and passing position reports when the whole of Africa and the Indian Sub-Continent were all using the same frequency. I can well remember those days. I was faced with the problem when I was 22 years old and the only solution was (is) "to get your ear in". I could take you to a hundred places where you simply would not have a clue for the first hour or two. I don't really want to get into the MPL debate per se; if they are well and properly trained, then they will be fine. I have spent a lot of my time teaching in a multi-lingual environment and no one nation or licence group has the perfect answer to the ATC problem. The only secret to communicating is no secret at all. It is called "getting used to it" and my experience is that the licence held has b*gger all to do with it. P.S. I do hope you can speak Cornish. |
What is not mentioned so far is what all this is going to mean for the grey haired folks on the left :
Flying for one of those typical airline annex flightschool type of companies I see a daily influx of guys and girls, who payed a huge amount of money to get a typerating and get very little money in return(they call that salary). Allthough very enthusiatic youngsters and great people (most) on a personal level, most are a absolute nightmare to have as a collegue when things are only beginning to go wrong by adding a bit foul wx, a few innocent caution lights and or unwilling Flight Director/autopilots. The trainingfolks sign them off with min time and then it is time for you to continue being a training pilot, though not payed for it. Now understand me well, I do not mind to help them down the path of ever increasing wisdom and experience, I have enjoyed the same from old grey skippers as well, but that is something different compared to the extra workload I get teaching the kids to fly/operate in this enviroment. That just should not be part of my job. With the ever decreasing turnarounds and slot contraints and busy ATC with multiple stepdown profiles , max duty-min rest beancounter schedules etc, I do not need to babysit as well and see them messing around with switches, missing calls etc. not to mention you have a full bladder, you worry to bits in your absence, hoping nothing goes wrong while being in the toilet. And then you have the odd day, you are lucky to fly with one of the more experienced fo and or a newby with lots of time in GA beforehand, and the difference shows. I did it the hard way, worked myself up, and have had lots of benefit from that experience.My first airline required 4000 hrs for command and allthough the time seemed long on the right, I did learn a lot. Nowadays 1500 hrs is the time for an upgrade and the beancounters are trying to convince the public that is safe. Meaning that Captain and co together have a total experience of 1700 hrs:ooh: But then again, what is my opinion worth.............. |
JW411
I note from your profile that you are an ATCO. Can I please ask you what experience you have of talking to other ATC units on a global basis from the cockpit of an aeroplane? The only secret to communicating is no secret at all. It is called "getting used to it" and my experience is that the licence held has b*gger all to do with it. P.S. I do hope you can speak Cornish. I'm not here to defend myself personally btw. I asked a question which, in my opinion, needs addressing if the MPL is to be workable in an operational day-to-day environment. |
Understanding R/T is something that takes time to build up. Ane fule kno's that.
A sim is in no way shape or form a good experience building place to learn it. It shouldn't take someone long to work it out, but most "traditionally" trained CPL's will have an advantage over someone with naff all experience of real ATC in a dynamic environment. They might still be rubbish at it, but they are one step ahead. |
Can anyone please say here exactly how much this Mpl programme cost as I am under no illusion it will be fairly costly compared to the current modular or integrated route.
I am a working pilot myself but trying to gaze into the future how will private guys afford the training in an expensive simulator. |
The MPL is seen as airline and type-specific. So it won't be possible for self-funded wannabees to take the MPL course unless an airline is also involved.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...rnet/zxzxz.jpg The only way the MPL will succeed is if airlines start paying for their pilot training again instead of relying on desperate 'self-improvers' or poaching pilots from other airlines..... |
How much?
@NC
The student is billed 60K Euro for 45h SEP JAR PPL plus 10h SEP IFR, 15h MEP IFR both without checkride. Add some 140h FNPT and Sim including a type rating on either A320 or B737. And yes, 65h total flight time do not provide enough experience to stay calm when things get rough. Mit Hals- und Beinbruch Pittspilot |
The only way the MPL will succeed is if airlines start paying for their pilot training again instead of relying on desperate 'self-improvers' or poaching pilots from other airlines..... As an aside the original meaning of the word "mortgage" means "debt until death"!. It seems many these days are indeed mortgaged until death - where's the freedom in that? |
"Airline specific training" is mentioned here, and that`s the heart of the MPL. The student is trained, under the umbrella of a specific airline, for the MPL. This is all fine and dandy as long as things are on track, and the track is stable... Problem is, that the only airline who was doing the MPL (as far as I can remember) was Sterling. And they aren`t around anymore:ouch:. So where does this leave the MPL pilots rained by Sterling - and according to Sterling SOPs from day 1? My guess would be having to fork up some more hard cash to get a CPL/IR/ME-A to have a spitting chance at landing another job :ugh:. That`s the industry for you; it`s a long way to the top if you wanna rock`n`roll:D
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Another case of common language proving to be a barrier. In east Asia the push is on, hot and heavy. And the interpretation of "airline specific training" definitely is not interpreted to mean the same as "training for a specific airline." Check out some of the self-funded Indian (and other) MPL students at Philippine flight schools. It's touted as the wave of the future in training; sponsored, funded, or not. Paying lip-service to following a JAA syllabus.
What starts out as questionable practice pushed by EU operators for economic purposes can easily become a global nightmare. |
What starts out as questionable practice pushed by EU operators for economic purposes can easily become a global nightmare. 2) MPL was NEVER for 'economic purposes'. The intent was for a competency based program that would be more efficient in terms of timeframe. Experience to date indicates an MPL programme is more expensive than the traditional route. As to your global nightmare comment........ |
IMHO , "more efficient in terms of time-frame" is an "economic properties"
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MPL conceived by Misses Tooey- therefore all Hooey:}
:* |
Let's think ahead!!!!
Hi guys!
I won't lose much time talking about A/P's, A/THR, Stick&rudder, etc.... The situation WE, as pilots, have come is unacceptable. Microwaves cook fast too, but the results are unhealthy and of low quality. Anyway that's not the point!!!! Let's stop thinking as tech. top guns and discussing which background or professional progress is better. Main thing is MONEY $$$$. Money talks..... Who do you think this brights ideas (MCC's, pilots paying for flying, etc...) came from?...... That's Right__________ INDUSTRY. Companies CEO's, marketing/financial dept. guys just can't stand that bloody aircraft drivers get "so much cash" at the end of the year. How can they fight that? Very simple, you press authorities to create such fast miracles as MPL. You convice some :mad: pilots (sorry for their mums) to sign as postholders and take care of the "boys". You convice the EU brussels guys to not even ask for High School certificate to acces this "daddie's son job" (JAA, just need basic ground school for an ATP). You convince established pilots that paying for a type rating is great, because you are doing what you like, flying, yes mate they do us a Big Favour. And after all, there are some guys who call themselves pilots who support such measures and innovations!!!! The major enemy for pilots are..... Pilots. We are guilty, as long as we keep on looking the other way thinking about buying sport cars and gorgeous houses. Wait and see how long this will last!! Sorry guys, but I lost my hope! |
The student is billed 60K Euro for 45h SEP JAR PPL plus 10h SEP IFR, 15h MEP IFR both without checkride. Add some 140h FNPT and Sim including a type rating on either A320 or B737. The 200 hour challenge BY THOMAS B. HAINES EDITOR IN CHIEF AOPA PILOT, NOVEMBER 2008 (page 40) At 200 hours were you ready for an ATP level checkride? Ready to fly as a first officer on an airliner? Ready to look over your left shoulder at paying passengers? Were those paying passengers ready for your next landing? For most of us the answer to all would be no. But can it be done? Should it be done? Officials at the Commercial Airline Pilot Training (CAPT) Program say, yes, and yes. And more than 100 pilots now flying for airlines are proof that it can happen. "We're trying to break the old mold that you need 1,200 flight hours" to fly for an airline, says Chris Kokai, executive director of the CAPT Program. Based at Flagler County Airport just north of Daytona Beach, Florida, the program is owned by Georgia based FTS International. FTS purchased the program from Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in August 2006. While the U.S. training market is in the doldrums, international demand for airline pilots is still soaring. As of September, CAPT was training about 200 students, 185 of them from China. The balance are either recent college graduates seeking an airline career or career changers chucking the desk job for their dream of flying the line. The CAPT Program's $100,000 price tag is certainly a deterrent for some, admits Kokai, but the quality and efficiency of the program allows the student to move into a career quickly, often with a leg up on those who choose a more traditional training route. For one thing, the CAPT students exit the program with a Boeing MD 90 type rating. Although not many airlines fly the MD-90, the fact that the students have been trained on big iron systems and glass cockpits eases the training burden on the hiring airline. How can this be? Thinking back to my own flight training and watching my 15 year old daughter work her way through a conventional training program, I find it hard to believe that students with as, few as 200 hours are saddling up a 150,000 pound, 150 passenger airliner after passing an ATP level type rating course. The key, says Kokai, is a structured training course designed to take zero time students through private pilot and commercial certificates while adding on multiengine and instrument ratings in 200 hours. Intense emotional and psychological screening removes from consideration students not suited to that style of training. The company accepts only about 70 percent of the students who apply. Most students come to the program with zero time. Students, who are required to wear uniforms, are in training six days a week. A typical day starts with a one hour prebrief; a 1.5 hour flight; another 1.5 hours riding in the backseat acting as a copilot while another student flies, and a one hour debrief. The backseat student has a push to talk switch and is expected to act as a copilot, managing radios, charts, navigation, and checklists. In addition, the students spend several additional hours daily in ground school and studying. An instructor facilitates the briefings, but the students are expected to score themselves and their partnersan effort to assure that they are used to challenging the authority of the captain. In cockpit video cameras prove to be powerful tools in helping students understand weaknesses both in flying and in crew coordination. "We don't train you to pass a checkride, we train you to be a captain in a Transport category jet with command authority," explains Kokai. The students move seamlessly through ratings and certificates. "We wouldn't even solo them except the FAA requires it," he says. The school utilizes a fleet of new Cirrus SR20s for primary and instrument training and the initial parts of the commercial training. The balance of the commercial training and the multiengine training is done in new Piper Seminoles with Avidyne Entegra panels nearly identical to those in the SR20s. The school is evaluating the purchase of various turbine airplanes to give students experience in turbine operations. From there it's a short hike to the right seat of an airliner, perhaps as little as 12 months from when the student first set foot in an airplane. E mail the author at [email protected]. |
I the training is airline specific does it mean the initial part of the training will be generic i.e done on an fnpt2 or a similar sim then the latter stages on a category d sim of the particular aircraft the airline wants you to fly. The fnpt2 can be used to learn basic tracking as of ndbs, vors etc then the emrgency procedures and and company sops in the latter stages on a category d sim which is a lot more expensive.
The initial part can be used to weed out those who may not be able to complete the course. |
All of you with 'experience' demonstrate your bigotry in suggesting that anyone with less experience is dangerous.
The whole point about appropriate training is that lessons YOU learnt in operations over many years can now be included in the best initiation lessons so that we can inculcate good habits to individuals which maybe the rest of us never experienced; isn't that a good idea? |
Don't be daft. No training can compete with a well trained person who also has experience.
Training is one thing, experience another. Neither can replace eachother. |
Sit down with a professional concert pianist, then, and ask him to teach you the lessons he's learned in his career.
Then you can perform. No need for time in seat after all. |
The whole point about appropriate training is that lessons YOU learnt in operations over many years can now be included in the best initiation lessons so that we can inculcate good habits to individuals which maybe the rest of us never experienced; isn't that a good idea? Experience will come to everybody eventually. The flight deck of an airliner can be an artifically comfortable environment where the world waiting to bite you, can seem a lot further away than it might really be. It isn't the CRM or training course aptitudes that bother some of the more experienced contributors ( or bigots?) It is the fact that such low experience levels probably mean you haven't had the opportunity to frighten yourself yet, but one day you will. |
Spot on man..................
Bealzebub,
I want to commend you on your observation-boy is this following statement of yours ever the truth! “The flight deck of an airliner can be an artificially comfortable environment where the world waiting to bite you, can seem a lot further away than it might really be.” Isn’t it amazing how we can drone along for years and thousands of hours staring at the same gauges/instrument/FMS and it all feels so very comfortable and routine. But it doesn’t take very much and the whole thing becomes a strange raging beast! The American 757 in Cali comes to mind, as do many other accidents. I have seen this same scenario happen many times in the simulator with experienced crews. Listening to the final few moments of a doomed airliner’s ATC communications I am struck by how often the crew is mere seconds away from death and they have no idea that they are about to perish. MPL or no MPL, Ab-initio or not, self-improver or military; the political and financial forces driving MPL will not be persuaded by the likes of me. “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward”. Captain, your work load is about to go up again. |
Another day at work..........
This one was such a wild ride I stapled the ATIS in my logbook as a keepsake. K### ARR ATIS F 0734Z SPECIAL 17032G45 10SM BKN025 BKN040 OVC100 08/03 A2915 WIND SHEAR ADZYS IN EFCT PILOTS REPORT GAINS AND LOSSES 15 KNOTS ON FINAL. The landing runway was 16, but in reality the wind was shifting around 30-40 degrees, steady at 32 gusting 45 and higher. When the storm was done ¾ of a million people were out of power many for the better part of a week. When we were walking out of the terminal windows were blowing out scattering glass. They shut the airport down and the winds eventually peaked at over 70 knots. Many of you have flow in and landed in worse conditions. How do you think the MPL pilot on their first month on the line is going to react? Anybody going to let them have the landing?
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I am not initially in favor of the MPL or the mentioned MD90 program because it leaves pilots with the need for an advanced cockpit and a Captain. I don't think that getting typed with 250 hrs TT can substitute at least a year as a CFI in the formation of a future airline pilot.
What if having finished your MPL, your airline has to let you go? Who would hire you with 60 hrs TT, and an A320 type rating with 0 hours? After all of that money and effort you don't even qualify to fly a 172 for traffic watch. Unless you find an MD-90 operator desperate for pilots, I don't think 250 hrs TT will get you hired in many places. Instead of the expensive MD-90 type just get your CFI/II/MEI. You will have a way to make a few bucks and build time while jobs come around. I think that by trying to cut in front of the line, students who go this way might end up spending more money and will be narrowing down their opportunities to get jobs. It is nothing against the 200hr guys, I have seen them succeed in airline cockpits, but they have only done so in massive hiring frenzies. When things cool off, like right now, these programs are a scam. No way will you get hired. Then what? |
How do you think the MPL pilot on their first month on the line is going to react? Bear in mind, I have done lots of Line Indoctrination training most of it thoroughly enjoyable with consummate, experienced professionals who knew their stuff but I've also had some who were low time in light airplanes to whom the airplane, the job and the environment were initially more than a handful. 'Nuff said, (but they eventually became fine pilots, I will add). To address those who may consider permitting the MPL to continue if things are going well, I would say stick to a previously planned action and spend the gas and time. After all, the bean-counters are already saving big bucks in shortened training footprints and have passed the job on to ordinary line captains, without recognition, pay or formal indemnification, to give newbie MPLs the "industry" experience they didn't receive in the bush, corporate or the military. The flight deck of an airliner can be an artifically comfortable environment where the world waiting to bite you, can seem a lot further away than it might really be. It's not a matter of sitting on the edge of the seat, it's a matter of constant, quiet awareness and "recursive" behaviours - meaning, constant, silent, moving analysis of the airplane, the radio work, the FMC and autoflight and then the more "distant" aircraft systems; it is a series of "if-then's" which doesn't interfere with functioning but like walking itself, is something that is done automatically but with a keeness of attention for the slightest hint of change in the "landscape" - if anyone has ever taken a home video of a glass cockpit, the constant refreshing, in sections, of the screen can be seen - quite fascinating - same notion, but far more sophisticated should be going on in all crews' minds: a constant, habitual refreshing of the entire environment's changes, because what is said about the cockpit being "benign" is absolutely true. It is a warm, congenial little room "to which food is brought and all other needs are met" in which pleasant, quiet conversation may be had but which is travelling at just under a thousand feet per second in an unbelievably hostile environment that is a minimum of 30 minutes away from safe harbour, (earth). "Success" can (and does - I've seen it), rapidly dull an airline's sensitivities to safety issues, and, in flight, can and does dull a crew's situational awareness if they do not exercise the constant refreshing of same. Great comment for professional crews and hobbyists alike. |
I think we will find that very few European airlines will be going down the MPL route. The great majority don't like what they are seeing. Indeed, one of the initiating forces in the whole concept was a major EU airline and they have now backed off from the whole idea. The big danger, I believe, is in Chindia. There are predictions (or were until a monthor two ago) of literally thousands of new pilots required. For them the MPL is attractive because it is so little weather or time of day dependant. They are already talking of producing the goods in 12 months. To achieve this the candidate will have no days off, no leave and no time to consolidate his learning. This really does make the mind boggle. Whereas the Western regulatory authorities could probably be relied on to monitor the output, the same will not apply where the state holds all the strings. I hope I am being unduly pessimestic.
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I don't know why you guys are all bashing the poor MPL pilots. They are not to blame for all the mess. They only took advantage of it. I am sure all you guys would have grabbed a chance to do it if it was on offer during your time. Rule 1: Treat your copilot with respect, or are we back to the days when he was considered a useless fellow sitting in the right seat?
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The main reason I'm against it has been stated by others
---no air sense ----and also with such little solo time = very little flight/personal responsibility. ---- not learning how to make decisions on their own. furthermore I question the motives of such applicants I mean do they want to fly or press buttons and get laid? lastly, it really doesn't matter the person's qualifications because the mountains say MP-who!? --- PP- Who!?----ATP- WHO!? Professor of Who!!! |
crosswind landing germany
thought you might like to know that the PF of that baby was a very young 20 yr old female FO
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experience?
This one was such a wild ride I stapled the ATIS in my logbook as a keepsake. K### ARR ATIS F 0734Z SPECIAL 17032G45 10SM BKN025 BKN040 OVC100 08/03 A2915 WIND SHEAR ADZYS IN EFCT PILOTS REPORT GAINS AND LOSSES 15 KNOTS ON FINAL. How do you think the MPL pilot on their first month on the line is going to react? Anybody going to let them have the landing? What bothers me from this message and the quoted text above is that it takes only experienced guys to continue flight into adverse conditions rather that divert. The 320 skipper had 4 diversion airfields in a 20 minute radius with runways into the wind as well as the option of another runway in Hamburg with a lesser crosswind component. Let alone driving the bird himself. What exactly was it that you were thinking when you read the ATIS plus and minus 15 knots windshear message? Seriously, please enlighten me on your thoughts since I obviously missed the 'continued flight into windshear' lesson. If there is one thing that cannot be said about 'rookies' is that they are bold enough to continue when they know **** is about to hit the fan. If there is any danger at all in flying with lowtimers it is that of not being able to stand up to Captain Ace who is 'gonna show you how it is done'. :D well done, are you going to continue next time when it says WS 16 knots, 17? No offense buddy but maybe you need to review your SOPs rather than stapling ATIS reports in your book. |
pugulistic
making decisions on your own is a concept that got abanded with the 'Captain is king philosophy' after the Tenerife tragedy. Quoting that as an asset just shows your lack of understanding of the CRM concept. Jacek The girl was 23 and PF, instead of trying to spice up the incident, you may want to consider why the captain was not flying the approach himself. |
Originally Posted by postman
making decisions on your own is a concept that got abanded with the 'Captain is king philosophy' after the Tenerife tragedy.
Quoting that as an asset just shows your lack of understanding of the CRM concept. |
Experience!!!
As far as I know no one is born with an ATPL. We all have to start somewhere and we all have to learn. A CPL can go straight froma Seneca to a 737. Its all a big jump and we all had to learn the path. Lets not beat up on the MPLs. Show the benefits of your skills, experience and CRM and help them to enjoy what you have.
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to score themselves and their partnersan effort to assure that they are used to challenging the authority of the captain |
It certainly threatens safety when the likes of Ryanair resolve to only recruit inexperienced FOs as they are cheaper than experienced FOs.
Not solely Ryanair, many others also. Just as now in UK everyone could see that the economy was in danger, everyone will wring their hands and say 'I told you so' when this dilution in qualifications contributes to a hull loss. |
silverhawk:
I do hope that I am wrong, but I suspect that you are quite an experienced chap who happens to be out of work right now? If so, my heart goes out to you for I have also been in that situation on more than one occasion where I was too qualified to find a new job. What you need to do is be patient and look for a new-start company that needs your experience and forget about getting in at the bottom of an existing carrier. You cannot afford to be at the bottom of the hill at age 44. You also need to understand why existing companies tend to prefer new blood. They probably already have umpteen experienced and loyal F/Os who are waiting for command and would not be thrilled at some new-start taking their place on the list. Sadly, as a retired TRI/TRE with a lot of experience, it has to be said that the new guys are probably preferable material as compared to old shags. They come without baggage. They don't spend half their time redesigning the aeroplane in groundschool and then telling us all in the simulator and during line training that this isn't the way that they used to do it in ABC Airlines etc. etc. I am in no way suggesting that you personally would go down that road but you would be amazed at how many try. Generally speaking, new blood is good news from a company point of view. That is, unless you are starting your company from scratch, in which case, you need experience NOW. I have a lot of experience of teaching 250-300 hour pilots to sit in the F/O's seat and there are a lot of very smart and well-trained young boys and girls out there. Most of my youngsters are now doing a great job in the left seat. |
making decisions on your own is a concept that got abanded with the 'Captain is king philosophy' after the Tenerife tragedy. :confused: BOAC, you took the words from my mouth;) PA |
Lots of talk of experience levels reducing,but for the larger companies there is no shortage of experienced pilots. BA take from a more experienced pool of people as well as some cadets. Easy used to until the spectre of easy cash reared its ugly head! I could continue.
So why has the MPL taken so long to get established? In my view it has not been needed in the recent period with easy credit availability and no end of lemmings to jump into the financial ruin of being an ab initio cadet. With money far harder to come by and a reduction of available victims, companies may soon have to dip into their own pockets again. And this was the original concept, to make airline pilots quickly and at a minimum cost. My own belief is to put them all in a PA34 for a year single pilot flying freight and let the natural selection process provide the useful candidates to the airlines :E D and F :8 |
D & F,
You want to put all newly qualified low time pilots into a single crew ME IFR environment? You must be mad. The "survivors" can go on to fly jets eh? Get real. Want to improve air safety? Single pilot IFR should be banned. Regards, PJ |
PJ, better would be single vfr in a 172 (1965 edition, of course :E)
:8 |
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