I've been using it for 20 years, LHR shorthaul so I think I am qualified to comment.

Just keep it. It works very well and reduces RT. Some crews don't have the patience for the operator to keep up at busy times; they should have the red bar left in front of them for another minute as a punishment!

Just out of curiosity is BA wanting it to stop purely because there was disruption last year due to a shortage of system operators? That seems a bit short sighted. Also was the shortage due to sickness or due to lack of trained staff, if the latter then maybe it would be better for BA to pressure BAA/HAL to get more poeple trained than stop the system.

GT,

Just to clarify, the Lighting Operators are NATS staff, so the final say in L/Op numbers is down to NATS, as long as the coverage was pursuant to the ATS contract with HAL.

Of course, the NATS contract with all the London BAA airfields is coming under great cost pressure from BAA's new owners who've made it very clear, so I hear, that the continual and incremental contract cost increase that the 'old BAA' was happy with is no longer good enough.

Great system - keep it!

At times it is already difficult to get into the ground frequency to ask for taxy clearance. Giving up the system will definately increase congestion on the frequencies, making it even harder to get once clearance.

I've been operating in and out of LHR & LGW since 1974 and the "greens" are superb. Without a doubt they are a major improvement in safety compared with airfields without them.:ok:

Someone please post the name of the idiot that wants them withdrawn.:ugh:

If you added all the useful experience of BA management pilots together, and put it in one place, it would fill a small espresso cup and smell of s$%£.

Show them the door and suggest they go forth and multiply.
http://www.tvradiobits.co.uk/tellyyears/Roobarb2.jpg:mad:

I sure hope they don't change it. Heathrow is a disaster in many respects but ATC / Ground Control is not one of them. If it were not for the efficiency of the controllers that work London Airports / Airspace, I think things would grind to a halt.

One of the few things that works really well at LHR is "follow the greens". A brilliant system (in more than just words!) which allows those who are not very intimate with the place to find their way around. I'd like to see this system installed everywhere please. It also allows the PNT (Pilot Not Taxying) to spend more time monitoring rather than map reading.

PM.

I think that the point has well and truly been made - rethink please BA.. to put it politely..

keep it!
 

lhr best system in the world. probably the best atc in the world.

a simple comparison between taxying round lhr at night and cdg should answer this question. whilst i'm sure the french think it's perfect (along with speaking french on the ground/twr freq) the simple fact is that on my few visits to cdg the most difficult aspect of the trip was the taxying without being lost or suffering a epileptic event. the sheer number of lights on that airfield, imho, are a distraction.

We spend our lives as professional aviators trying to increase our SA as much as is possible, whilst freeing up as much capacity as we can in order to supervise ourselves, our crewmates and our enviroment. Is this yet another example of an airline, this time BA, relying our professionalism to enable the management to reduce the saftey margins to increase profit?

We work for executives who hold our positions in contempt and treat saftey as a profit margin. I always assumed that my airline strived to be the safest airline in the world. It is with a heavy heart that i have realised that their only care is that we are safe enough, and then only just.

Overall it is a good system but it still has its failures. Many is the time we have been instructed to hold short of a taxiway - yet the green lights continue past it. The light operator having made the inevitable 'human error'. Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick from this thread but is the idea in question to do away with verbal instruction and just follow lit pathways? If so I think the pitfalls are obvious.

The AGLCS system of green light guidance at LGW is a great system safe and must not be scrapped. Already mentioned, it helps you find your way around complicated taxiways at major airports and may well have prevented accidents, had the system been in use in Milan etc. The authorities must not accede to those BA idiots. I believe even Boeing got so fed up with them wanting changes made to their aircaft specifications they were told you will get a standard spec' Boeing.:=

I departed LHR this morning and was held in the 'juliets' before taxi waiting for a BA 767 to park - no guidance.

On my return this afternoon I held for 15 minutes waiting for stand guidance. I called speedbird only to be told that dispatch are short of staff.

15 minutes blocking taxiway B because Willie has got rid of superfluous staff.

Do me a favour BA management, put your own house in order before blaming anyone else for your delays.

...and keep the lighting system HAL. I, too, have used Manchester - it's a right mess.

Not just safety
 

Having been based at LHR for 30 years, during which I operated to over 200 airports worldwide, I am very much in favour of the 'follow the greens' system. I might be thought to be, and probably am, biased by long familiarity. However, many of the points made on safety grounds are entirely valid. What may be less obvious is that the system also enhances the movement rate. During the period of bad weather in December LHR achieved movement rates with Low Vis Procedures in force of 28 to 30 per hour. There were howls of anguish at the delays and cancellations caused, how much worse they would have been without the greens. Even in good weather the movement rate is enhanced by their use because of reduced RT and fewer routing mistakes. Sure, the operator can get it wrong, that applies to any system. That being the case, the removal of a monitor is another poor move.
The size of LHR *is* relevant. As anyone who has operated there knows, LHR is in a permanent state of flux, particularly so with the advent of T5 and the massive changes to the taxiway system that involves. When that is complete the redevelopment of the Central Area will bring changes for many years to come. The confined space in which LHR operates requires that WIP areas are moved far more frequently than would be necessary were there more space for alternative routes. Even a pilot familiar with LHR can become confused by WIP. I have the T-shirt!

Excellent posts!

Autobrake Low - you have got the wrong end of the stick. Reread the thread, no-one is advocating removing R/T instructions. The fact that the greens provide a visual back-up to taxiway instructions is a boon. A system which uses both to compliment each other is self-evidently safer than either one or the other alone. The suggestion by a Big Airline is that LHR/LGW revert to R/T-only procedures, to eliminate the occasional mistake which costs vital seconds of taxi time :rolleyes::ugh:.

I suggest LGW based pilots raise this at the LGW/ATC open pilot forum on the 26/4. Details from your company.

Don't let BA wreck an excellent system which everyone else should copy.

The best system in the world. After 15 years flying into LHR i cant say i found anything better any where else. Hope it stays.:D

Dont change it:=

Good system - don't change it. We know what the BA managers want - I bet the BA pilots have a different view.

LHR is a big enough mess without removing one of its strongest assets. It is interesting the amount of times I have been operating through other major airports in low vis and commented on how it could be improved by copying lgw/ lhr lighting system.

Please keep it and ignore big airways, they have far too many silly ideas that tend to get implemented.

Tubby Linton
Man does have the capability of setting up routes for acft, but unlike Heathrow and Gatwick we do not have a dedicated lighting panel operator to do this job unless we are in LVPS when the 24L controller becomes available. Rest assured I would prefer to say " follow the greens" rather than give you several different taxiways

In more than 40 years of operating world wide I can only say that this is the best system I have encountered anywhere. Keep it!

Best system I've seen in 30 years of flying - please keep the greens!

Have to agree with the majority of the responses, i see it as an asset that we would be much worse off without.

Provides in many ways a second confirmation of the taxi clearence, and with the high traffic volumes in and out of the two airports the red stopbars can bring your attention to other traffic on the taxiway, especially at night!

Keep the greens!

Keep It
 

I operate B767 longhaul outta Heathrow and love the green system. Worked down terminal 5 (parked up) too. Keep It. Lgw good too when 75 in there but gatwick so easy to get around.........

...and from the Yank side of the pond.

Awesome stuff, wish we had it here, would have prevented more than one or two events.

Excellent system, should be used everywere! (especially MAN!!):rolleyes:

Sorry to go off topic for just a small bit but the taxiway system at MAN is like the roads on the landside-there is barely a couple of hundred yards of straight line in the place.Also when it is wet( a not unusual occurrence at MAN) the stand designation lines are very hard to see at night.The naming system of taxiways seem to me to have no logic to them at MAN.The green system down south is excellent and I would be very sad to see it go!

So rather than stop using this fantastic system at LHR the general consensus from the users seems to be that the "greens" should be used everywhere else! Here, here!

I've been flying in to LHR for 37 years and "follow the greens" should be world standard.

G'day ;)

thanks guys, my colleagues are sure happy with the response level! LETS hope certain managers take a look too!:ok:

Gonzo

I am not so sure you are right here, CAP168, Licensing of Aerodromes states:- I have spoken to my good friend Chester Draws, Lighting Operator at Heathrow, today and there is a rumor doing the rounds that BA have been asked to ask this question by NATS Management!! how true this is I can only speculate.

Having seen the system in action a few times, I firmley believe that had it been in use at Milan and Taipae then a lot of souls would have been saved, what price do BA, BAA & NATS put on peoples lives?

Saftey should never be comprimised and I believe that this system and the great job the Lighting Operators do is a major factor in the safe operation of Heathrow!

Eileen

Used the 'greens' tonight at LGW... & it never ceases to amaze me... it's a brilliant system!!! :ok:

Ps. Would somebody please tell the French about it?... gawd knows they could do with it at CDG ! :rolleyes:

If this proves to be true...and I'm not saying I know either way, would this prove to be yet another "brilliant" idea from the latte' quaffing chinless wonders at waterworld?
Insert...ethnic tails..bespoke aircraft options..etc etc etc

I'm flabbergasted that anyone could actually see benefit in changing this truely innovative and thoroughly superb system.

Eileen,

Ok, perhaps I should have said 'modified' instead of 'got rid of', but the fact remains that there is wriggle room in CAP168. However, I'm sure noone who uses the system operationally (ATC, L/Op, Crews) would advocate such a move.

Nats Management Eh???????????????????????????????????:*

Please don't change it, briliiant system. With all the other problems that go on and they pick something that works well. If it aint broke don't fix it!

To echo the comments of the vast majority here...

Its an excellent system that enhances saftey, please don't let it be removed.

My first time into LHR a few years back was a night landing and the "follow the greens" just simplified our job and allowed us to keep a safe lookout.

Should be implemented worldwide not taken away..............

Ignore BA.