Big Rab,

I think I have to put my hand up to being the PF on the flight in question!

Please note it was my first approach into AGP on Rwy14 and indeed only my 5th line sector. I find that doing it the way I was taught in the sim (no high speed approaches) is the only way I am going to learn how to get fully au fait with the machine before trying high speed approaches and having a working knowledge of what the 75 is capable of.

Your comments on what 'works' into AGP are noted and I am sure will be useful as my experience builds. I think it good training that the Training Captains allow us to fly what we feel comfortable with. I seem to recall one of my 'debrief' points to him was that with hindsight I could have stayed a bit cleaner/quicker for longer. Still can't get over how good it looks when I do a walk around though!

Safe flying (fast or slow)

PP

Part of the training should be to fit in with the flow (safety in mind of course).

Why does it need to ba an SOP? Surely a good Captain (and I am sure that at JMC they are) is able to use his discretion when there is high ground about and the weather is **** etc! Isn't that what a Captain is paid the big bucks to do?

Time out guys, maybe this was a training flight, someone new to type! we all started somewhere!!

Watching this thread with interest, I today monitored a large number of aircraft arriving/departing Heathrow. My radar will give accurate groundspeed readings of any aircraft. Consequently, I allowed 50kts tailwind for aircraft leaving LAM/BIG. The following company aircraft were doing significantly more than 300kts when downwind in the pattern at altitudes/FLs of 5000'-FL80:

BAW
SHT
DLH
TAP
BMA

and an own goal

RRR

Furthermore, almost without exception, departing aircraft were in excess of 250kts on climbout way before FL100.

I don't know the specific rules but, if 250 kts below FL100 is mandatory, there are an awful lot of operators who are ignoring this rule.

Fly Safely........

Here here guys I agree with all your points. During training your brain doesn't work as quickly and you need the time to think.

P.S. I'm not in the spare parts business and I will certainly never try to hold you up since I have been flying large jets for many years. I still believe it to be a good SOP and as I stated earlier if you are too slow ATC can ask you to speed up.

SAFE FLYING!

Whipping Boy,

Surprises me a great deal. I´ve been in and out of LHR regularly for years now, and have ALWAYS been at 220 kts when leaving LAM hold. And thats what everybody else is instructed to do too! NOBODY does 300 kts IAS leaving the holds at LHR!! And nobody would even dare to.

Whipping Boy

The 250Kts can be lifted by ATC. It's Class A airspace, where there is normally no speed limit. However the London area has a restriction of 250Kts below FL100 as an additional condition. Being a known traffic environment, ATC are quite within their rights to either cancel it, or instruct aircraft to fly faster than 250Kts if required.

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10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

Pilot Pete

Thanks for the explanation. I fully accept your reasons.
You are quire right to proceed at a pace that is commensurate with the conditions and your experience. And it was reasonable for your trainer to let you get on with it, as it was entirely safe to do so.

AGP ( Malaga – Spain) is a place were one can get into trouble under certain circumstances; and sadly ATC is sometimes not as good as it could be.

I was curious if anything odd was going on at JMC, but guess by coincidence had a run of training flights. Thanks for taking the post in the good nature that it was intended, and good luck with your training.

10W, maybe you clear something up for me, does the 250 below 10 in the London TMA only apply to outbouds?

The STAR plates do not state that there is a limit of 250 below 10 but there are the SLPs.

An interesting point autobrakemedium. As it's not actually my patch I'll leave chapter and verse to a Terminal Control ATCO. I'm sure one will be along shortly.

Having said that, your second statement is correct and there is no FL100 limit for inbounds. If you're following the STAR then the SLP could be reached at a higher level than FL100 depending on your vertical profile. To me the interesting part is what happens if you are vectored off the STAR before the SLP. As you have been given a new 'clearance' which supersedes the STAR, it might be argued that the SLP no longer applies !!

------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

Hung Start. I've been a Heathrow Approach controller for 30 years and I have to slightly disagree with you. Especially when we're on easterlies we often have traffic coming off LAM and BIG at 300 kts and I've certainly had traffic leave LAM doing 340+, reducing gradully to 250. On westerlies it's a little more difficult but in quiet periods high speed is often OK off Bovingdon for a good 10 miles, or straight-in off BIG. I'm perfectly happy - if traffic permits - to cancel the SLP speeds and I'm sure I speak for most of my colleagues. We obviously have to slow you down sometime during the intermediate approach to enable us to keep you within "our" airspace and to give us a reasonable chance of getting you onto the ILS. With early morning straight-in approaches we often say "no ATC speed control" - then one guy goes balls out to 4DME and the next reduces to 170kts at 30 miles! Some pilots prefer to reduce speed long before I need them to... occasional 747s still downwind with 25 miles to go will say "we're still doing 220kts, London". I think this means "we'd like to slow down a bit"!

If you get a "leave LAM heading 270, speed 210kts" when there's little else about it's probably a trainee. We all have to learn sometime.

If you are inbound the 250kts max comes into force at the speed limit point regardless of Flight Level.

If outbound you are restricted to 250kts max until you pass FL100 unless derestricted by ATC.

ps I would love to see an outbound Virgin A340 try an go faster than 250kts during the first 20 miles or so of flight!

What you troups need in the UK is MAX 250 knots below FL100, period, then.....everyone marches to the same music.

It isn't that simple 411A as sometimes we need the high speed to get the height off.

If the SOP is 250 below 10 why did I get stuck behind a JMC doing 210 @ FL140, 40NM out of BHX the other night. The speed hadn't been requested by ATC either. We thought JMC had sub chartered a turbo-prop, but as we taxied in there was the 757 just ahead. Come on guys, get real!!!

autobrakemedium---
Well, that's what spoilers are for. Works for me anyway. Granted, some aircraft may well have a problem.

Heathrow Director,

Well then I stand corrected. Guess it´s just a matter of my airline (SAS) always wanting to land at Heathrow at the busiest times. :) Only highspeed I´ve ever had, was New Years eve 1999/2000. 325 kts from Logan to 15 mile final. Just great. Since then, I´ve always had the "leave LAM h.275 speed 220 kts." But hey, I get to fly fast elsewhere, at LHR I find satisfaction in just enjoying dealing with the best controllers that I get controlled by!!

Autobrakemedium, How do you think that pilots in N. America manage to get rid of excess height, given that they are not permitted to exceed 250kts below 10,000'? Or perhaps you thnk that getting above the profile is a purely European problem.

I am not a jmcer but I have to admit that I agree with there sop of 250 below 10. We have to remember that sop's are designed to cover all flights and in general jmc fly into charter destinations where atc is not always as good, high ground tends to be a major factor and the good old ILS hasn't been heard of.

Everybody has talked about birds I would prefer to avoid the odd pa28 island hopping.

Even in UK controlled airspace, how do you know that a student from oxford/cranfield hasn't strayed into controlled airspace.

250 below 10 gives you much more time to avoid others and keep an eye out. Imagine the subsequent court of enquiry - why didn't you slow down sir were you in a rush?

Think about it safety first.

Don't forget the beancounters - a higher speed approach (where legal, safe, etc, etc!) will use less gas than dragging in from 25 nm at slow speed.