ALPA to Ask for Cockpit Guns - CNN
 

A bulletin just posted on www.cnn.com :

"Pilots union to ask Congress to allow pilots to have guns in cockpit. Details soon."


Some of my Rambo colleagues have been chomping at the bit to bring their own weapons. Dodge City at FL350?

Without knowing the exact consequences of discharging a weapon at 40 thousand feet, but believing it is preferable to what happened a week ago, I am in favour. It is a definite discouragement to anyone wanting to gain access to the flight deck. We are all ready for a rapid depressurisation, even though it is traumatic...
Steel cockpit doors won't work, intelligence didn't work, therefore take away the temptation - cockpit control.=
If the flightdeck cannot be controlled, what is the purpose of hijacking the aircraft? NONE !!!!

PS I have side-arms experience and would be willing to undero further training and carry a side arm. Anyone else willing?

Let the replies flood in!

With reservation -

The problem is in the control of the weapons. If cabin-cleaners don't steal them, the cockpit could never be left un-manned.

With special loads from star-pointed bird-shot to low power loads, it's not inconceivable.

In any event, some weapon should be available just to deter the terrorists.

Unfortunately, that takes us back to aircraft bombings as a terrorist alternative.

Guns?????

I am in favour of the principle that flight deck crew should be able to defend themselves, but a gun leaves too much at risk. A highjacker skilled in hand-to-hand combat could surely take possession of a gun, which makes things infinitely worse (especially if the highjacker was unarmed in the first place). Are we going to have to take target practice in addition to regular sim checks? Checklists for gun usage?

Why not something that *isn't* fatal...pepper spray or electrozapper devices (don'k know what they are called)?

This way, the highjackers could still be neutralized, but would pose less of a threat to the crew.

It seems logical to me...
Cheers

Union wants armed pilots in cockpits

September 24, 2001 Posted: 5:26 PM EDT (2126 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The world's oldest and largest pilots' union is seeking congressional approval for it members to carry firearms into airline cockpits and be granted arrest authority.

Could a bullet damage the airplane or bystanders?

Certain ammunition, known as prefragmented or frangible bullets, contain many tiny pellets and are designed to break up after hitting a hard surface, potentially minimizing the risk of ricochet or damage to the plane's fuselage.

Officials with the Air Line Pilots Association say pilots have no choice but to arm themselves to maintain security in the sky following the four September 11 hijackings in which the World Trade Center's twin towers were destroyed and the Pentagon was damaged. The fourth flight crashed in rural Pennsylvania, killing everyone on board.

The union has already sought an increase in the number of available federal air marshals who would travel among passengers on commercial flights, but says that is insufficient. There aren't enough marshals to travel on every scheduled flight, the association says.

Pilots should receive extensive classroom and firearms training to become actual law enforcement officials, with training to be done on a voluntary basis, union officials say.

Sen. John McCain, ranking Republican on the Senate Commerce Committee, which considers airline security issues, says it is still too early to say how Congress will respond to the proposal.

"We've got to hear from the Justice Department, call in the experts, before we take such a step," he said. "But I would be guided by the experts' view."

The FBI says it is considering the proposal.

The union represents more than 66,000 pilots employed by 47 airlines in the United States and Canada.

'Electrozappers', which I saw demonstrated last month, require a considerable amount of skill to discharge accurately; much more than a gun. As for pepper spray in the close confines of the flightdeck; no thanks. I'll take the gun. Unarmed combat requires more than skill against a gun, it requires surprise. Again, I'll take the gun.

American Airlines' pilot union representing over 11,000 is also calling for arming pilots.

Don't all ships have armouries? As for discharge, it wouldn't take much to develop a high impact low velocity weapon, might just about dent the fuselage but would sure take the wind out of any human recipient.

Sorry I can't belive any sane pilot would want guns on the flight deck.How many crazy terrorists would it take to overpower someone before they got the gun and hey presto who's in charge?Why smuggle guns onto an aircraft when they are already there!!!!!!
Remember guys what we are dealing with here are people who have lost all sense of reality to the extent that they have no regard for any life least of all there own.
We are not cowboys this is not the wild west, Bin laden DEAD OR ALIVE YES PLEASE ,but lets get a grip! :eek: We are after all professional airline pilots ,but you never know we might get to practise shooting people as we execute a SID on one engine in the SIM. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: bertieb ]

Two points.
1. Do El Al pilots have guns?
2. During the days of wagon trains about 10 times more emigrants were killed by accidental discharge of firearms than died at the hands of wild Indians, baddies, rattlesnakes etc.

See, Sky marshalls won't work, these two threads are very similar.

How many crazy terrorists would it take to overpower the UNARMED pilots, and hey presto, who's in charge?

because the terrorists don't HAVE the guns......

Precisely WHY they should be kept out of the cockpit at all cost! In addition to stronger cockpit doors, and stricter cockpit access, a firearm is a very effective tool.


You are right, we aren't cowboys, but what does that have to do with anything? This is a discussion about KEEPING control of the airplane in the hands of the guys who are signed into the logbook! The wackos have changed the rules and we have to change as well. Asking Mr. Terrorist to leave us alone will not work.

The idea of arming pilots is not for sport or with the intent of shooting people. It is to prevent the ANIMALS from taking control of the aircraft. If one of those ANIMALS gets shot in the interim, so be it. (that's PERIOD)

This isn't a movie fellows........this has hit us in our backyard.

ALPA's 66,000 pilots and Allied Pilots Association 11,000 pistol toting pilots...? How can all those loaded weapons remain safe at airport checkpoints and in cockpits? Would foreign countries allow U.S. airline pilots to possess loaded guns?
Impractical reality. The answer is bulletproof reinforced bulkheads with steel doors and heavy locks...and revised inflight security training. My Leatherman was confiscated, but Now I'm supposed to be OK to carry a loaded pistol? :rolleyes:

Budgie69 -
I dispute your facts about accidental discharges in the early days of the West. Propaganda.

Your analogy is disingenous and dilberatly misleading. We're not talking about handing out pistols to every civilian in the aircraft. We're talking about officals/flightdeck crew familiar and trained in the handling/ROE of firearms. Spend 20 years in the military handling them and never saw an injury from an accidental discharge.

So are we to have teaspoons and safety razors confiscated as we pass through security only to board an aeroplane with guns on board??? If teaspoons are so lethal why not arm the flight deck with a box of those, they're cheaper than guns, and less lkely to punch holes in the fuselage at 40,000 feet...

But then the DTLR (Dept of Tripe, Lunacy and Superannuated Parasites) would never sanction such a dangerous development. Pilots might be able to stir their tea in the event of a hijack. That would never do.

But seriously, guns are'nt the answer. Who would use them? It could not happen in the UK with our bizarre attitudes to guns, simply unthinkabe. And how easily could Johnny Rag-Head get past them? Just as easily as he got past the exixting security. I'm not going to suggest how here, but apply your mind to ways of incapacitating an armed crew without resorting to physical methods. What use is the gun there?

Daft idea.

Military pilots flying transports and all other aircraft are armed if the situation/mission dictates, So its not unheard of, or as ridiculous as some of you may think. How about this scenario, the pilots are in the secure cockpit, when word gets out of a hijacking scenario in the cabin, I would love to have the capability via some type of camera to observe the situation, and possibly act in a decisive way via my GUN!!!

Look, if a Pilot wants to carry his own gun, fine, I carried one every day I few on the job up in Alaska. Guess what nothing happened. I didn't shoot myself or anybody else. Besides the funny thing its the Law in Alaska, that a proper firearm must be part of the kit.Back in the '70's a lot of the guys carried guns, they stopped when airplane highjacking sort of went out of style. The guys on Airplane number four took it back at the cost of there own lives. My guess is that anybody that says highjack on an Airplane now is going to get the S**t kick out of them. I don't think passingers will sit by like sheep anymore. Besides if the Airlines like American Authorizes and requires that the pilots carry side arms, then as far as US regulations go, they can. My guess it will be like before, are you nuts, and just do it on the QT. It would not surprise me that if there are guns on airliners that are flying already. Besides as a passinger I would not even care if they did, just like I don't care what you ate for lunch either.

Come on People!!

Fact: The majority of people in the US that are killed by guns in their own homes are in fact killed by their own weapon in the hands of an intruder!!

Anyway, who the heck is going to fly the plane while the pilots are shooting up terrorists? There is usually more than one hijacker, such as was the case with the WTC attacks.

Jeez, I hope this isn't true!! It is a completely assanine idea. Only in America.

aviatter :(

PS. There is a simple solution, eliminate cockpit doors to the passenger area. Simply have access to the cockpit directly from the exterior of the plane. This takes the pilots out of any moral decisions and will prevent anybody from gaining control of the airplane. What's that? You have a bomb? Well, then, you can take the plane down but you can't take a skyscraper with you. As simple as that.

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: aviatter ]

Fiction!

Check your facts!

There are MANY more folks SAVED by the lawful use of firearms in the States than are killed...........


Besides the discussion is about guns in aircraft cockpits.....

Who the heck is going to fly the plane when Abdul slits both pilot's throats?

There is ALWAYS more than one pilot, plus autopilot to take care of things for the few moments it takes to dispatch the cretins....

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: Tripower455 ]

Tripower455,

You are wrong!! Read my statement. People killed by guns in their own homes are more likely to have been killed by their own gun than one that an intruder brought with them. Check your facts!!

And this does have reference to the cockpit. Do you really think that two pilots are going to be able to keep control of that weapon when their are five or more terrorists on the plane. Give me a break.

aviatter :mad:

[ 25 September 2001: Message edited by: aviatter ]