apu hunter

I by no means wish to question your statements about transponder use, but if you have never seen it and the other chap has, it is possible. perhaps not widespread, perhaps only a few bad eggs. again, I find the idea of cheating on altitude/transponder very troubling.

Many,Many years ago a movie on this subject came out called, "THE CROWDED SKY" with Dana Andrews as an airline pilot who cheats by 500' in a DC6 or 7 ,can't remember, and ends up in a MAC with Efrem Zimblist Jr. Flying a navy version of a T33.

also, in the USA I have seen a pilot or two turn off altitude reporting if going through an asigned altitude and correcting to avoid trouble with ATC/FAA.


I didn't respect those guys either.

misd again

1.It was a ferry so unlikely to be heavy.
2. the a/c can easily climb to FL 410
3. Even if the above 2 don't apply, once the a/c picks up a bit of speed the manoevre is easily accomplished.

The Emraer is unusual in that it CAN take off at MTOW and climb straight up to FL370.

Our company advice is firm. Even at max cert alt (FL370)
FOLLOW THE TCAS!

I don't even wish to hint at not following it. All doubt was removed after the terrible Swiss MAC.

Sorry to hear of this tragic event.

I spent 10 weeks flying in this area back in 99 and if my memory serves correct it is an area which requires IFBP. Things however may have changed since then.

Condolences to those involved.

Legacy images
 

Brazilian Air Force just released the first images from the Legacy

Judge by yourself:

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/f...egacy4_fab.jpg

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/f...egacy2_fab.jpg

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/f...egacy1_fab.jpg

http://www.dac.gov.br/salanoticias/f...egacy3_fab.jpg

For me it looks very unlikely that the Legacy is responsible for the 737 crash, unless a 100cm piece of winglet is enought to bring it down.

I guess that this images and the lack of distress call from the Gol crew points to a very sudden problem with the Boeing..

Food for thought, for sure

Have a look at the second picture, it looks like the tip of the horizontal Stab also hit the B737.

A 100cm piece of dense composite hitting a light-weight aluminium skin at 1000 knots? I think that would hurt.

Not being an expert, a thought! would it not depend on where the contact was made on the Boeing, say the rudder , an aileron or leading edge of a wing
which could affect the stability of the aircraft

G-I-B

Now wait a minute - where and how would the 737 have to be hit by the winglet to be brought down :confused: Looking at picture 2, there are, IMHO, two possible scenarios:

1) the part of the winglet that was sheared off hit the stab
2) the wing of the 737 hit the Legacy winglet and the 737 winglet (assuming this particular one has them) hit the stab.

While I'm not a heavy-iron driver, I cannot really imagine either scenario to be enough to bring a 737 down. :confused:

One or both of the aircraft weren't in straight and level flight.

To clip the edge of the wing and the edge of the stab is impossible if they were both level.

I'm trying to work out the geometry of the collision, and it must involve either a violent climb or steep turn from one or the other aircraft.

What about the engine of the 737 hitting the Legacy winglet, and the winglet of the 737 hitting the Legacy stab?
But probably the wing of the 737 is too long for that.

Corrections
 

Read the thread, and just wanted to correct a few wrong images.

Legacy (the new verion) with the A1E engines can carry full fuel and 8 pax.
This Legacy version (same as in accident) can also climb from MTOW direct to FL390.

As aircraft was ferrying back to US (New York) it probably didn't need to take off from Sao Jose with full fuel, as it would have to do a re-fuel along the way anyway, (max range with full fuel and 8 pax is 3,250nm (at M0.74) or just a little over, subject to final completion weight and cruise speed.--MTOW take off, at up to 37C as engines have a high flat rating) and if crew were so keen on best cruise, then judging fuel load, with only 7 pax aboard , would have probably given them capability of getting the FL410 (the ceiling for this aircraft) fairly quickly. However, as I don't know the refueling airport I can't judge this. Likely cruise speed (and we can wait to get the actual data) would be around M0.78/M0.79....

Loved the line comparing a Legacy with a Lear 45.....like comparing a Bentley with a mini cooper !

Find it very hard to believe that any pro pilot who'd turned off TCAS to climb to non approved FL, would then admit to such in public, after causing a mid-air......let's wait for the FDR to tell this little tale......

The Legacy winglet is composite, with a small metal bracket, the tail section is however more substantial, but it only seems a fairly small section was lost.

I had friends on that Legacy, and am only glad to learn they are safe. It is however, so terribly sad that so many perished on the 737. Lets just hope that the search finds some alive eventually......

Need (minor) Random offsets built into the FMC, been saying that for years.

Maybe the 737 was overstressed in trying to avoid the collission?

The wing would have gone through the Legacy's stab.

Does anyone know the kind of forces that would cause a structural failure on a Legacy winglet ?

There is something very fishy about all of this, the 737 would have had an awful lot more momentum than the bizjet and as anyone who has seen a prang on the apron knows, winglets are pretty frangibile structures. I cannot imagine many parts of a 737 not being able to lop off a winglet with only minor damage.

Last second Hi-G collision avoidance, in a Right turn the starboard side would be under most Centrepetal force and would therefore be under most stress.

Failure of the winglet and outer side of the stab ???

Anyone know what kind of force this would need ??

hy flyer

I too would be surprised if someone admitted turning off transponder to illegally change altitude.


looking at the number 2 picture does show damage to horizontal stab as well as the winglet.

legacy was quite lucky, a few more inches on the stab and they might have lost control.

if the legacy was in a steep left turn, or it was crossing at a 90 degree angle to boeing, the winglet or the stab might have hit the cockpit/canopy of the 737 killing the pilots.




hyflyer, I do hope you will post what you learn from your friends regarding the transponder scenario.

tragic to be sure...

I've been in the jumpseat observing how a crew handled a near mid air ( with a toy balloon, but boy did they jump),I spotted it, called a toy balloon at 11 o'clock, I can imagine spotting a plane and over controlling the plane I was in to react to something unexpected at such a flight level.

j

Khaosai, that area had a lot of improvement since 1999. At mid 2002 I belive, the Porto Velho center, Manaus center and Belem center were merged into Amazonico (amazonic) center. At this time, Amazonico center has full radar survillance and VHF service (no HF anymore), in order to prevent drugs from getting in Brazil via air, from unknown traffic, witch was pretty normal a few years ago!! In fact, there is a policy of shotting down airplanes that are unknown...(after intercepting, etc...).The most recent news here in Brazil reports that the Legacy had switched off the transponder in order to go up....(I dont buy this one....). Very sad moment for Brazilian aviation!

The winglet is about a feet wide. Now imagine that such a winglet hits in its strongest direction a fuselage which is itself not very strong. A fuselage is build to withstand the pressure difference and the flight loads, but not intended to have high area pressure.
It's like a a sharp knife cutting through the metal. Think of apron damage.

It is possible even in level flight that the two collided causing the damage as in pic 2 above.
I made a simple illustration:
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...dLegacy600.png

If the picture can't be seen, it is saved here:
http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m...gAnch=imgAnch1


Profit Max.

Profit Max this is exactly the scenario I had in mind - you just did a great job illustrating it :ok:

Now, the question remains - would that be enough to bring the 737 down ???