Vietnam Airlines 777 narrowly escapes being shot down
 

From "Der Spiegel" online edition: (rough translation):

A story is just emerging as to how about 200 passengers on a Vietnam Airlines 777 flying from Hanoi to Frankfurt just narrowly escaped being shot down. According to "Viet Nam Net" the 777 was en route during the night of 17/18 April, using air space in Ukraine, Poland and the Czech Republic for over 65 minutes without any radio communications. As the plane deviated from the prescribed flight path, Czech authorities were prepared to shoot it down, according to "Viet Nam Net" online magazine.

Jan Pejsek of the Czech Ministry of Defence confirmed these events to Der Spiegel in principle. At 0545 on 18th April 2006, Czech Air Force personnel detected what to them was an unidentifable aircraft which had not communicated with Prague ATC. Considering the possibility that this could be an unfriendly military aircraft, two fighter jets were sent up to intercept the plane. However, the target turned out to be a Vietnamese civilian jet, and a few minutes after visual contact with the fighter jets, radio communications were established.

According to Vietnamese media reports, the fighter pilots were astonished to see that both pilots of the Vietnam Airlines plane were asleep. "They were asleep and had the plane flying on autopilot for one hour and five minutes", says "Viet Nam Net". There is neither confirmation or rejection of this from Czech authorities.

Whilst Vietnam Airlines have denied the report, the entire crew, including cabin crew has been suspended. (Apparently, there are standing orders for a cabin crew member to visit the cockpit every 15 minutes to establish that all is well up front).

The report goes on to describe various scandals that have shaken Vietnam Airlines, including the recent arrest of F/O Tran Van Dang at Sydney for trying to take out US$ 500,000 from Australia without declaring this money.

Only an hour!?
 

Boeing should install on VA special bench seats in the cockpit (to make it more uncomfy to sleep) or some kind of robot to knock dem on d jars every 15 min...
I used to bite my palms to stay awake. Never ever took even a cat nap with a viet pilot in d cockpit. Used to take bout 30 minutes after T/C for d average viet pilot to be sound asleep. Actually it was better to let dem sleep all d way to DXB - less trouble...
I was doin less dan 30 sec for a loo trip...
Prob is one of dese days dey wil run out of fuel while blisfully asleep... And its not without a precedent!
Cabin crew not big diff. Used to find dem tucked like sardines on d floor in d mid galley, some times six abreast... D job was just a cheap way to shop abroad for say... stolen electronics from Japan, etc.
Poor VA pax!!!
:mad:
http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...421838,00.html

It must have been a deeeeeeeeep..... sleep to miss the Pilot Inactivity Monitor EICAS Alert??? :confused:

gengis
 

Not good enough for viet pilots.
Seen n heard it so many times with no effect on dem...

I am genuinely intrigued - does the B777 EICAS really have a 'pilot inactivity' alert or warning?

Terminal boredom
 

In the 70's a TWA freighter 707 (crew of 3) overflew LAX westbound - the SELCAL chimes finally woke them before they reached a critical fuel state.

SFI145

Yes, it's known as a CAM ( Crew Alertness Monitor ). Basically a system linked into the FMC ( Flight Management Computer ) which continuosly monitors switch action on MCP, EFIS control panel, CDU's and radios to name but a few. After around 15 minutes or so after last switch action was detected, an advisory message 'PILOT RESPONSE' is displayed. If there is still no action approx 5 minutes after this then a caution message is displayed. A further 5 minutes will lead to a warning. In the descent, the timings are reduced to 5,6 and 7 minutes respectively, ie, after 7 minutes in the descent you'll be getting a warning. Pushing ANY monitored swich will cancel the 'PILOT RESPONSE' message. Simple, but it works.

Err...........apart from in this case it would appear! :uhoh:

You know, that would actually encourage me to sleep. Knowing that there was something that will start chiming at me in 20 minutes or so would make me feel much more comfortable about closing my eyes.

asleep at the switch...its all about money isn't it? fatigue, augmented crews, onboard rest, prolonged flight with cabin altitude near 8000' ...everything comes down to the allocation of resources.


j

One can only imagine what would have happened if a TCAS RA had been issued.

If they could sleep through the EICAS Pilot Inactivity alerts..... sigh... maybe the pilot seats need to be wired to the L AC Transfer Bus for a 110V/440 Hz alert! Seriously though, this is not on. We have all been in that situation i know, but this is way over the top


BYMONEK: I think the alert stops at Caution. Don't think it'll go to Warning....

Quite surprising on such a forum,whatever the previous experiences of S266,to find these kind of remarks about another culture...I would say:quite racist aren't they??!!:= :yuk:

Hi everyone,

I fly the B777 and we've tried the pilot resonse feature enroute, on the long transoceanic segments.
The timing between the different kinds of warnings can be adjusted by the maintenance dept, it is something that an airline can easily adjust.
In my airline the settings are:
20 mins: eicas message "pilot response" and no sound.
25 mins: eicas caution message "pilot resonse" and a caution bleep.
30 mins: eicas warning (red) "pilot response" and a continuous wailer.

It is impossible to sleep through the warning wailer, it is too loud. So I guess that Vietnam airlines have got their settings at more than an hour....

Fox Niner, BYMONEK - ok i stand corrected then. The system does go to EICAS Warning level! :ugh:

racist??
 

How can it be racistic if it is true :confused: :confused:
Then it is called facts, no matter what colour you are born with.

Accept it and realise that not all cultures are equally diciplined :} :}

Gentlemen,

this is not racistic, this also has nothing to do with the culture,
this is against a corruped, communits government and it's airline,
such regimes have nothing to do with culture, race or colour...
(you remember, we used to have a communist regime in Germany)

This has to stop, that pilots do favour to some ministry officials,
by smuggling their black, bribe money back and forth,
and they keep their jobs regardless of capabilities and safety standards.

This is the point of the problem.

Just my 0.02$

Many posts here from individual pilots who say more or less the same thing, collectively...IE, long duty rostered periods, crew fatigue, overworked (and sometimes underpaid), and while many of these complaints taken individually, a few might have merit, I would suspect that the vast majority are, shall we say, ah....BS.

Lets face facts here, folks.

Those who actually joined an aircarrier as a FD crew member asked for WORK when they first entered the human resourses front door, and now that they have found it, some (but certainly not all) constantly complain.
Well, there is a simple remedy for these folks, who apparently are bored to death of the routine...find another job, move aside, and let the next guy in line have a go at the position.
There seem to be no end to the number that want to do so, so why not accomodate these folks...who knows, perhaps the numbers of complaints will drop to lower levels.

Harry Truman said it best, IMO....'can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.'

We have an 'unofficial' policy, if you HAVE to rest the eyes for ten mins, that a member of the cabin crew is required to sit in the jump seat. On top of that, more information and focus on rostering and preparation for the flight in terms of rest, diet etc. It seems obvious but it does happen, 3 a.m. catches you out sometimes regardless of rest. ( a similar incident prompted more focus on the subject ) ( ... including fighters.....) and if you just can't keep 'em open a quick cat nap does wonders. Also promotes an environment where you do feel you can ask for 10 mins instead of struggling through till, say, the appraoch...
(Know of a F27 F/O too scared to wake the capt as they trundled past destination into the Indian Ocean! Obviously far more issues there than rest.....)
Policy is also that a crew member is called in when you need to pop out to the loo. Tedious but makes sense.
Happy Napping :ooh:

The 744 has one as well. It becomes quite a game on a long night over the Pacific to resist twiddling ANY knob or dial long enough to make it go off -- almost enough to keep you awake on its own!

Hmmm, alarm 'signals' to wake up the crew.

In years gone past, this was nothing more than a bicycle bell mounted to the captains or first officers foot rest, connected with a sturdy rubber band to the Bendix doppler leg change lever...the lever flips over, the bell rings, waking the pilots (and flight engineer), position report follows, wind in the next leg in the doppler...then back to sleep.

Worked like a charm...:E

Dozing for dollars...low tech style.

The same story occured with an Air France flight few years ago. Returning from Asia, also in the Ukrainian airspace. The plane was escorted by fighters for a certain time, and ATC had to vector some traffic on the AF way. Sleeping captain, and F/O chatting with a stewardess, headset on the knees. It also lasted an hour before they realise.

Well, it is easy to condemn them, but I would love to have a look at their last few weeks roster to see why they were asleep!
The Korean crash at Guam many years ago revealed a murderous roster that few of us could have managed, no wonder the crew were half-asleep when flying the approach!

I can understand that pilots might need a snooze from time to time can't see a problem with that, but for both pilots to be sleeping at the same time i think is unforgivable.

I very much doubt that it was intentional. I'd be more interested in finding out what planned rest periods they had the previous 48 hours or so, and what actual rest they took. There are times when crews don't make the best use of their allocated rest periods. I have in the past personally witnessed examples of that.

I must agree, I have worked in Vietnam for 16 years & even my Vietnamese cohorts say that VNA will need foriegn crew for many years to come - because of the lack of discipline.

Oh, and by the way my wife is Vietnamese & we have three beautiful daughters, I'd like to thank Vietnam for that.

I suppose that I should get around to saying what I wanted to say in the first place.

I was on a Vietnam Ailines flight from Da nang to Hanoi a whlie back, I was a PAX but unfortunately for me the Vietnamese football team was playing an "important" match.

The flight crew/cabin crew were up-front listening to the match courtesy of Vietnamese ATC.

Makes you wonder!!!

Back to the original topic: It was a "Spiegel" report. Anybody here with facts or more reliable details?

Xin
 

Having worked for VN for several years now I would like to throw some light on the situation here.VN'S safety culture is improving all the time and the standard of young cadets coming out of the training scheme is as good as anywhere in the world.The management of the airline were shocked at these two incidents and have taken action to rectify future problems.
The crew that were on the Hanoi Frankfurt flight have been stood down as the matter is being thoroughly investigated by both the airline and the CAAV.
Certainly crew rostering is a problem here with the local crew working around 50% more than foreign crews.This is because of the current pay system rewards them for working every day.It is not unusual to see a roster with no days off in the home port.I am sure there is a burn out factor with some of these crews at the moment.
The smuggling F/O has severly embaressed everyone and will have to deal with Australian authorities before he will be dealt with back in Vietnam,I believe he may be in custody for quite some time. But do not think that management have shrugged their shoulders and wait for it to go away,they are being very pro active.
As far as corruption goes its the way things get done here,once again things are changing but a lot more time is needed to get rid of this deeply ingrained practise.
Xin:ok:

Do mean to say that the report contains no facts?

Loss of Com Incident
 

This incident has deeply embarrassed all at VN and management now seem to be inward looking and not just blaming the crew.

It seems that the flight went nocoms somewhere in the Ukraine and flew through Poland and into the Czech republic before being intercepted and regaining communications. At no time was its identity in doubt. The transponder code was correct and was turned on.

It seems that a frequency change was not given to the aircraft by the controller somewhere in the Ukraine and it flew out of range of that transmitter. The usual collection of events then occurred to cause the holes in the Swiss cheese to line up.

The way it has been told: 1. One pilot may have taken a nap, speakers were turned off and the other pilot put on his headset. 2. At sometime one of the crew had selected a different frequency on com 3 so data was not selected, inbound phone calls were then prevented. 3 At sometime the pilot took his headset off and the aircraft became no com.

It has been said that the captain was not on great terms with the cabin crew and they came nowhere near him. The captain at sometime engaged the F/O in some sort of quiz and a degree of awareness seems to have been lost. It was just prior to dawn when body rhythm is at its lowest.

They deny being asleep. The crew seems to have been the relief crew. The flight is heavy crewed with four pilots.

The aircraft is fitted with the “Pilot Response” warning.

It seems that the operating F/O came back on duty early and observed the fighter and immediately communicated on 121.5.

Relief crew - captain - nap?

my question is, what if there is NO response from all 3 crew response alarms? and both crew members are actually incapacitated?? what does the aircraft do then? will it automatically issue a PAN or Mayday call?

Good question !

How is it to be understood in relation to Helios accident ?
Does only 777 have such function, or 737 as well ???

The CAM is optional on the 777, so not all airlines have it.

The Job in Hand
 

A Quiz-------Who wants to be a Millionaire.
Its always baffled me the section of our community that use the Flight Deck as an examination centre. Invariably radio calls end up being missed or requiring at the very least repeats. Saw it myself recently while jump seating. All singing and dancing training Capt with new f/o, demonstrating the A/P in HDG mode,cruises through waypoint and when I tapped his shoulder to point it out, he just wagged his finger for me to wait until he was ready. Needless to say I did not wait as we were heading for unfriendly airspace. He bought a lot of beer after.......

The job in hand is the operation of the Aircraft, leave the Quiz for terra firma.

Lowly SLF / PPL comment, so forgive me...

Could another special transponder code be assigned to this - and have the crew response alarms automagically get it to squawk whatever so that there is an external indication of the problem.

Of course, this may be such a rare event as to not warrant it, but that seems easier to me than an automatic pan or mayday which would require some robotic voice on the radio.

Paul.

With the external indication received, what do you think should happen then?

I can see the movie now!

"Good Morning Vietnam Pilots", staring Robin 'snoozing' Williams and Tom 'in the' Cruise:-) Of course it would be released in Czech as "Dobre rano Vjetname Kapitan".
rgds,
GP.

Tired---moi?
 

Happens more often than folk care to admit to. For very obvious reasons. And not only 2-crew a/c. There exists a culture in many companies which actively discourages in-flight controlled napping. Not good, and yet here seems to be an example where in-flight napping may have gone wrong. Conjecture, I know.

I feel compelled to say that this incident could probably have been avoided by judicious use of the relief crew. (Although maybe they had only recently left the flight deck for their bunks). But with 2-crew ops on deep-night returns from UK/Eire to the likes of Cyprus or Egypt, the pressure is on to work safely and effectively as a crew.

Perhaps 411A has a point, but I know no honest pilot who can say they are never desperately tired in flight at certain moments. I know of no absolute solution to the problem.

Before the tragedy at LIT Arkansas, the US FAA never had a required rest period for standby/reserve crews with multiple days on duty, except for 24 hours off in each 7 days. The pressure from the airlines or the White House was difficult to resist. Who appoints the top FAA Administrator? How about the Secretary of Transportation? No-not Congress. No-not the judicial branch.

Let's combine that older reality (which lasted decades) with the fact that any company can stretch/explode your 16 hour duty period (consecutive hours with no rest) by adding a long reposition or a series of ferry flights before or after the very long duty period. Some crews have worked, whether on DC-8s, 727s or Learjets etc for up to 24-30 hours or more with no rest period. You either say something to Crew Scheduling, for example: "yes sir, I can 'hack' (handle) the mission!" and continue with unsafe working periods, along with the rest of your company peers, or you leave or get fired/sacked. But civilian aviation, working for pax and freight airlines, is not a military rescue mission (i.e. Khe San). My apologies to the very brave (CAT) C-119 pilots who died when under fire at Dien Bien Phu etc.
Check out the NTSB's primary cause for the freight airline DC-8 crash at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This primary cause (fatigue) was reportedly a first for the NTSB. And it was not many years ago that the NTSB finally summed up the courage to publish such a conclusion.

One cpompany operated twin-turbofan jets, and when an engine flamed-out, they simply demanded a lower altitude and restarted it...too much checking of maintenance records and aircraft logbooks would result. But a pilot who correctly declared an emergency would be in serious trouble with the owner (fired), an infamous former race car driver, who once flew a Learjet solo and told the FAA Inspector that he did not need an FO. Other frieght companies were not better. At a company on the east coast, an emergency might NOT be declared, even in a DC-6 during approach with an engine fire. If a tower controller asked whther everything was ok, they just say "roger". The pilot's present company will remain anonymous. Our "Friends" at the FAA turned many blind eyes to these realities. Not all, but some of them. A Line Inspector's concerns can be overruled by his supervisor.

But many newer civilian pilots are unable or unwilling to distinguish between a mission and a civilian job...because they generally like the work, feel a strong need to prove and challenge themselves, and need it to pay bills or enhance their resumes/CV. The male ego in a peer setting can work wonders, or lead to tragedy. Some will work any terrible schedule because they can tell attractive women "well..I fly jets". Some of those types tend to be the type who, in order to inflate their own egos at any bottom-dollar salary, will scab a picket line in order to wear an airline jet uniform. For example, as a very young guy said before he scabbed at Continental in '83 (he later became Stan. Eval. with an AFRES C-130B squadron), "I want an airline job so bad I can taste it". It's all about me (ME).

An accident while flying freight will never sell newspapers and attract the attention of Congress unless women and children (it makes "good copy") on the ground die as a result. Check into the hull loss insurance ' pay off ' for each jet airliner, just for a B-737 or MD-83. Fatalities are considered part of the game by many upper mgmts. The media relish such opportunities and find it lucrative during 'rating $weeps'. $alve Lucrum! :E