Close call in Japan
 

Lucky boys - could have been another Teneriffa...

<<The JAL plane took off for Tokyo about 10 minutes after the incident, officials said.>>

Interesting point that. Had it been the fault of an air traffic controller (at least, in the UK) he would have been straight out of his seat and suspended pending an enquiry... yet this pilot, who was alleged to be at fault, just carries on.. Bizarre.

Strange.
Would have thought the F/O might have said something!!:confused:

I think there is a culture difference between western and asia thinking with regard to CRM.

The FO is nada over there , so if the Captain takes a decision even if it is the wrong one then the FO is not to question this decision.

Hope it will improve , but I doubt it.

Greetings,
PW2040

"Close but no cigar" - Thank God nothing happened..:E

I wouldnt bag out Asian airlines for lack of CRM and cockpit gradient. There is still plenty of this going on in Western Airlines. I have seen or been one to speak up on a couple of occasions, on both occasions coping the wrath of some irate individual who should know better.

That JAL captain should be FIRED! Instantly. Like yesterday already...

blueloo,

That is exactly the point. You spoke up or heard of others speaking up. Asian culture encourages the F/O not to speak up! Political correctness on your part doesn't help. :hmm:

In western airlines the Captain would be disciplined. The culture in the far east may mean that doesn't happen - the Captain may lose face! :ooh:

Fire the Captain...?
 

Barryt,

you seem to forget one thing. If every individual making mistakes was fired (not knowing the exact circumstances), then everybody would be jobless after a week!

It is true the captain of any A/C bears responsibilty for the whole flight management, but on the contrary of financial managers, they don't have the time to cover their ass when things go wrong. If fired, they will probably not find another job easily, on the contrary of the others...

ERRARE HUMANUM EST

Let's learn about the facts. This place is a rhumor network but not a linching one!

Let's wait until one knows more about the incident...?;)

Waspy,

If the results are ever published, will probably be another incident that just disappears.......

PW2040 reckons there is a culture difference between western and Asian thinking with regard to CRM.

No doubt about it. During the early eighties the Oriental Airlines Association commissioned Hong Kong University to carry out a study as to why their members included the world's 'safest' airline, Qantas, and (at the time) the world's worst, JAL. I think this was prompted after a JAL DC-8, in broad daylight, made a completely stable and controlled approach, and landing - into Tokyo harbour.

The CVR revealed that the FO had sat there and watched the whole process - and said b*gger all.

Anyway, after many months, HK Uni's conclusions were on a single sheet of A4. They simply compared the cultural/social relationship between a Qantas Capt and FO, and the JAL equivalent.

Trevor, the Qantas Capt making an 'error' would immediately hear of it from his social equal Bruce with, if time allowed, a good natured Aussie bollicking. Job done, and no loss of face, as the concept doesn't exist in Oz.

On the other hand, a JAL FO's social upbringing left him in complete awe of his Capt with not a hope of him 'correcting' the god on his left.

I was living the Far East at the time and I remember thinking that HK Uni had just revealed the bleedin obvious. Any difference today??

Presumably to stop after 1000 yards would require severe braking. However the report says that the flight departed only 10 minutes later. Hardly sufficient time to allow for cooling of the brakes.

Extremely lucky that they didn't have a fire in the wheelwells.

close call in japan
 

The Japan incident raises a couple of issues. Firstly, humans make mistakes. Procedures, training, CRM etc are all tools to try and reduce human error. The JAL crew, in bad weather went to take off without a clearance. The accident chain was broken when ATC (via ground radar) ordered JAL to abort.... Saving a disaster of huge proportions!

The worst however is yet to come.

Rather than the response we would expect from a major airline, ie disclose all, analyse training and procedures etc.......
No report was submitted by the Captain to the JCAB...this report is required by Japan Air Law, and is also no doubt a company requirement. Certain elements in JAL management conspired to coverup . Now they have been exposed, some are being punished by loosing a months pay!

One would hope this extremely dangerous culture is not widespread in JAL or any other airline.

One indeed could hope.
Unfortunately, you are bound to be disappointed...several times.:yuk:

Personal experience with a couple of asian airlines leads me to belive progress is being made, but sadly it is a two steps forward, one step back affair, IMO.:sad:

Wait a minute here, please. While we´ve had plenty of discussions on Asian vs. Non-Asian CRM here on PPRuNe, we only have a newspaper report about that incident - surely not a reliable source to conclude that the F/O didn´t speak up, or the brakes weren´t allowed to cool , or whatever.

I´m not familiar with New Chitose but "New Chitose Airport has two runways -- Runway A and Runway B" hardly qualifies for a professional report, does it?

No! Firing is too good for him, why not behead him in front of the whole company to reduce errors and improve morale.

JAL
 

Determining a sacking (or beheading.....) based on a newspaper report lacks sense and undermines the PPRuNe argument that the press over egg things and often know nothing about what they are talking about.

Regarding CRM in Asia, it is an issue. I am more than a little surprised that no-one has seen the similarity to SQ at Taiwan a few years back

I have a question or 2

I am a mere mortal wannabe and was just wondering with the poor viz how did they know he had started to roll ? Surface Radar I guess ? Is this at most airports ?(e.g. thinking of Tenerife here) another question is regarding TCAS (cant remember back to that subject) does it warn about ground movements ? or is it air/ground switch activated ?

I recall an incident at an airport where I did some training, 2 a/c started to roll for take off on intersecting runways, one (the commercial one) got a TCAS warning (the other was a light a/c). (hence my question re TCAS above)

FS

Does anyone know whether there are Western trained pilots working on JAL longhaul? and what the ratio is?

Would a western F/O query a take off clearance with a Japanese Captain if the situation occured again?

It does look like potential for another Tenerife, I thought this type of issue was long ago resolved by CRM etc.

Thankfully ATC were on the ball, well done to that controller.

Reason for asking is that I have a family member travelling with JAL longhaul this weekend, and if this is the standard of JAL's CRM / Culture then I am understandably concerned for her safety and general well being, especially when I am not immediately aware of this problem happening with a Western carrier as recently as this.

(In case of the 'why only register today question' I am already registered with pprune, however my normal username isn't anonymous enough for my partner not to be indentifiable to the airline with the potential repercussions thereof...)

(edited to add ATC Comment)