777-300ER delivery problem?
 

I was talking to an ATC friend who seemed to think that the latest 777-300ER to Air France had to divert on its delivery flight.

He didn't have any details although thought that it was engine related.

I heard that the engine had to be shut down on the delivery flight. The aircraft continued to CDG and had an uneventful landing.

Nothing of particular interest for this forum.

from an engineering point of view it would be interesting to know why it had to be shut down so if you do find out the reason AP please post

cheers ....

nosedive00 perhaps the "Bus" drivers would be interested! :}

It was an IFSD due to oil loss caused by I'm led to believe, a collapsed scavenge tube.

Gas Path, You don't think that the oil scav tube is the same reason why the first aircraft has been on watch since delivery?:{

If only I could tell.........:E

747Focal, I thought you were always eager to share your pearls of wisdom!:O

747Focal is VERY quiet this time,if it had been an Airbus...Well that's a different story.
Shame Boeing have put all their eggs in one basket by exclusive use of GE90's on the 300ER version!

That whole airplane has problems that can't be fixed. You pilots make sure and bring your sick bags when you fly her. ;)

747Focal.

If its that poor why don't you withdraw it from the market and recommend operators switch to the bus! :}

Or how about re-engining :E

It could save any further embarrasment :ouch:

The problems I was refering to have nothing to do with the engines. :{

sounds like 747 is talking about this particular airframe? ......

I think Focal is on about a certain "feeling" the 773 gives you, esp when sat at the back. :yuk: :mad:

It's alright, Harry Stonecipher at Boeing has "done a deal" with GE, so that keeps everything nice and cosy on the ER, whether it works or not.

I just think Harry is getting his own back on Boeing from all the days he spent at McDD being trounced by them !

Well when all 777-300ER pilots nickname her "galloping gearny" don't say I did not tell you so. :E

What do you want to bet, when any 'problems' are fixed, it will become very successful for Boeing, much like the B747 was, oh so many years ago.
With that aircraft, I was kept busy for a year delivering various bits in a Skyvan to Seattle...and the 747 swept all others aside.
Airboos, phooey...they can't even get the FD to give correct pitch indications for takeoff, at least on the EK machines...:yuk:

Ho Hum! sliding down that slippery slope of Bus versus Boeing again!
I wonder what Mr Boeing will do when BA asks for 15 777-300ER aircraft (plus options!) but not with that powerplant?:hmm:

411A, You got years of experience on me, but on this one I have intimate knowledge. It can't be fixed, not easily without new wings.

If you get to fly one I was not kidding about the sick bags for the pilots. ;)

and for those in the back.

This is an interesting line of discussion,


1. I would have thought that airframe issues such as (what I think) is being described here would have been sorted at design stage in a wind tunnel?

2. If there is "unusual motion" that causes nausia for the pilots, does that not represent a safety risk?


Invictus

(I am not a pilot).

Hmmm,
perhaps a stabilization augmentation system needed.
Or, improved.:ooh: :uhoh:

747FOCAL:

You seem to have a real problem with this bird.

If it does have the sort of problems you have mentioned I would expect to start to see the media pick up on this.

Oh, sorry this might actually be something the public would want to hear about .... so maybe not!

:rolleyes:


Out of choice then I don't suppose you would be seen in one again.;)

747Focal,

I'm surprised by your comment about needing new wings! I was under the impression this problem was something to do with autopilot logic, and the software is being re-written as we speak to get rid of this issue?

747FOCAL: Does this problem also apply to the standard -300 or only to the -300ER? If it's a motion issue - it probably puts it on a par with the A340-600!

Gaspath / lasernigel: I understand that the GE exclusivity is for all B777 variants with a MTOW of 700k/lb+ so, in theory, a variant could be developed with RR or PW engines with a restricted MTOW of 699k/lb (assuming anyone would want it). Anyone know if the GE agreement has a time limit? Only ask because interested to see that ANZ just ordered RR powered B777-200ERs and B7E7s and also optioned B777-300ERs for delivery in 2010+. Maybe they know that, by then, they'll be able to have RR power on the -300ER too - otherwise it would seem more logical to have specified GE for the -200ERs and 7E7s.

Torquelink.

Logical if the main decision was based on the 777 but not if it was based on the 7E7.

ANZ may think that the 7E7 variants better match the airlines growth plan and so have picked the engine they think best suits it. Not knowing much about the GE or RR engine I can't comment.

The decision on the 777 will then be based around any possible switching rights. Having chosen RR for the 7E7 it is only logical to then go with them on the 777.

747FOCAL put the 777X problem down to airframe and not the engine so pushing out the 777-300ER options for an RR engine doesn't help this problem.
:suspect:

It is only the ER version and only above a certain weight does the problem come into play. I am not going to say exactly what it is, but a smart aero person has more than enough information in this thread to figure it out. :E

Air France has categorically stated, in the plainest terms possible, that there was absolutely no incident of any sort on the delivery flight.

So if - and I stress 'if' - it turns out that there was a technical issue on the delivery flight, I'll be asking Air France some very difficult questions. Mainly about lying.

Its not dangerous if that is what you are worried about. :)

Perhaps they indeed were telling the truth. My understanding is the incident didn't happen during the delivery flight.

Mr Boeing will tell BA to go ahead and buy the A340-600 that is on a fattening diet and will be some 50 to 60,000lb heavier than the 777-300ER just to match what the -300ER can do. :D If you let engine selection to drive your aircraft purchase decision, then that's what you're going to get.

After talking with some of my Boeing friends, it appears the incident being discussed happened during a Boeing production flight test of an Air France airplane before delivery. It was reported as part of the normal incident reporting process required by the FAA.

From what I can REMEMBER the basic 777 had a yaw-sick prob when new. I think it was a long job to get the best set up on the yaw damper.

how the heck can the story vary from a problem/diversion to an Engine shutdown on delivery flight to a pre-delivery problem?

the sort of story that would drive Boeing/Air France up the wall!!!!

:{ :{ :{

I do know for a fact that this 777-300ER supposed to be delivered on Friday May 28th, but the delivery was postponed until Tuesday June 1 due to change of an Engine. So the engine shutdown did happen on the last Boeing Test Flight and AF is quite correct in stating that the delivery flight went normal.

hobie, My friend obviously got wind of something as verified by this thread. He just didn't have all the details.

I agree that Boeing and AF will be driven mad by this problem but because it has happened on an engine that has only just entered service. The late delivery, potential lost revenue, service management will all make them mad.

As for the event. It doesn't matter that it occured on pre delivery, delivery or in service, it is still an engine shut down on a new engine. This should concern us all. :{

I suppose AF should be thankful that this problem doesn't require them to follow every take off with a dustpan like BA's experience.:E

No doubt that it will concern GE, Boeing and AF, but it certainly should not be a concern to all

The flight wasn't even in revenue service and for all we know might not even carry the latest Service Bulletins, prior to entering service.

An economic concern to the bean counters but not necessairly an operational concern

pre-delivery shake-downs are a totally different ball game ...... if PPRUNE followed every snag cleared up in pre-delivery checks we would never get any time for sleep

the aircraft was delivered to spec with no problems on the delivery flight!!! - no engine shut down - no diversion - no xxxx nothing - Air France have a fine new Aircraft - long live Boeing (and the Bus company too!!!!)

:p :p :p

If the -ER bucks around as suggested earlier in this thread, does this not possibly raise questions about the airframe fatiguing faster?

I have flown both 747s and now I am on the 777. It's the best aicraft type that I have ever flown so far. When I first got on the 777, we jokingly called it the cripple 7. 6 years later, I wouldn't trade it for anything else.

I agree that the base 777 is a fine aircraft, from what I've heard one of the best. Although 747FOCAL does put this into question for the new version.

As for an engine shut down not causing everyone concern then I think you should see if the authorities feel this way.

A shake down is meant to pick up on manufacturing problems/ quality and isn't meant to pick up design defects as this appears to be. If this was a manufacturing quality problem then at least call it as one and the issue should be dropped, if not it shoud be a concern! :*

I agree that time will tell on the success of this aircraft/ engine as it does with all. With the level of investment I have no doubt it will be a success.:)

I am not trying to say it is a bad aircraft. It is just fine. The problem came from doing what every manufacturer does by growing the aircraft beyond its original intentions. If you do that you have to redesign certain things or performance problems as well as other problems can arise and you can't see them until it is already flying.

Airbus has had these problems with their A340-500 and -600 as well.