Im sort of thinking about that bit that says "before you pick the splinter out of someone elses eye pick the plank out of your own.
Its dead easy to have a pop at Big Airways,there an easy target.Envy springs to mind but I may be nieve.
This unfortunate incident over the drinking matter could have happened to a great many of us over the years, or am I still being nieve!
Lets hope our friends our dealt with compassionately

Capt. Happy
 

Because, from personal experience, BA crews are very fond of landing beers and socialising until the wee early hours of the morning. You may not have noticed it, though I find it difficult to belive, but I've lost track of the number of times I've seen BA crews getting more than just a drink or two. And before you start asking what I was doing there, I didn't operate the next day.

Secondly, BA crews has been caught on more than just one or two occasion. Each time it receives huge press attention. I'll give you that the UK gutter press is horrible at best, pure witch hunting at worst. That's just one more reason not to do something stupid. Blaming the press is a poor excuse for inappropriate behaviour. Some seem to think that it's ok to cheat as long as you don't get caught. Perhaps in some areas, but not when it comes to drinking and flying in my opinion.

Finally, the crews failed a breath analyzer test which reportedly showed 0.09% for one of the crew members. So please spare us the "innocent until proven guilty" rubbish unless you think that it's all a big conspiracy against BA.

BA crews have, again, been caught doing something they damn well know is stupid in the extreme, and yet again BA's name is dragged through the press, tarnishing its good name, not to mention the employees of BA. How a BA collegue can post a defence for someone who tarnishes their name and profession, and ultimately their livelihood, is beyond me.

Seems like both pilots are accused - now when me and the wife go out she stays off the pop so that she can drive home. Can't BA do the same?

Why do people talk about 'BA pilots' and the culture within when they don't know? I am a BA pilot and I don't drink, ever.

In my experience, most people go and hide in their hotel rooms rather than drink to all hours. And as for socialising in the bar - I do it all the time, but I don't drink alcohol and I don't stay up to all hours. If you need alcohol to unwind, get help - you don't need it, otherwise I would have permanently clenched teeth!

Almost all of my colleagues are very responsible and take their jobs very seriously, and it annoys all of us if someone is reckless. However we must remember that these people are innocent until proven guilty. If anything, this incident will make everyone hide in their rooms even more and poor old Ornithopter will have no one to socialise with!

Alcohol impairs your judgement - hence the fact it is hard to assess yourself.

And why is it 'always' BA - well its not - its just that we are the biggest and so an easy target, and because of the famous programme on telly, it works as a follow up. Plenty of famous people have been convicted of Drink Driving for instance, and do you ever hear about it? Not as good a story.

I think that the BA people here who are rushing to say "why knock us?" should reflect a little. None of us who give the matter any thought are taking potshots because you work for Birdseed - we know that the majority of you are careful professionals.

The problem is that, in the minds of the press and public, BA is British civil aviation, so when stuff like this hits the fan we all get tarred with the same brush - sorry to mix metaphors.

I've been in this business a long time and the reality of short haul rostering is that a "legal" drink is seldom possible these days. It does make sense for careful professionals - see above. Orange juice really isn't that bad, but if you're feeling like living dangerously, try tomato juice with Worcester, well iced!

I think the problem lies in the lack of consistency in the regulations, and some very difficult regs.

A zero tolerance reg is in my opinion both unecessary, and practically very difficult to comply with safely. What is needed is an evidence based and universally adopted blood alcohol level, which all can accept.

Consumption of alcohol, (particularly red wine) has numerous health benefits, including : reduction in stroke, heart disease and certain cancers. It is therefore important that individuals in any walk of life should not be denied the choice of taking alcohol in moderation. If we accept that, then zero tolerance is unfair.

The airline industry should take the lead in supporting research into the appropriate maximum levels of alcohol above which performance is significantly impaired. I'm certain there would be plenty of volunteers.

There is some, (not very good) evidence about fatigue and psycho-motor performance, and this is at least as important as blood alcohol.

I do not condone reckless excessive late night binge drinking, but I think there should be a consistent, fair and sensible approach to the problem rather than a blanket ban, which can reck pilots' lives unecessarily.

Let us all hope that the crew involved are innocent.

boozing norway
 

does A 4 have his Church parade rostered?Such outbursts are usually intended to hide a sheltered life,which most pilots don,t have/want.

The zero tolerance being 0,2 (promille) has nothing to do with chocolates and mouthwash.
It simply has to do with the tolerance of the measuring equipment and the testing method.

When was the last time a UK airliner had an accident because the flight crew had been drinking the night before ?
As SLF I would rather fly with a UK airline where the crew had had a few drinks the night before than with certain foreign airlines whose crew are zero alcohol.

FFF, if you seriously think I'd ever condone mixing drinking and flying then you obviously haven't read my post correctly.

See my first point; nothing in my post stated that I was defending them. I would merely suggest that you let legal proceedings take place first before hanging these guys up on a noose.

I think Ornithopter registered what I was getting at; as a member of a BA crew I take great pride in my work and don't want to be seen as "just another Nigel." Besides which, on many occasions the whole crew just go to bed knackered...

BA are no different to any other airline - this could have happened to anyone, in any airline, and to suggest otherwise is naive and hypocritical.

Martinidoc

What sort of rubbish is this:

"Consumption of alcohol, (particularly red wine) has numerous health benefits, including : reduction in stroke, heart disease and certain cancers. It is therefore important that individuals in any walk of life should not be denied the choice of taking alcohol in moderation. If we accept that, then zero tolerance is unfair."

Are you trying to tell us that if we don't drink ONE night we risk our health? Get a grip, please. Nobody is telling us we should never drink, but they are saying (and this is nothing new) don't drink excesively while on duty. And if excesively translates as no more than 1 unit of alcohol due to the current levels, then no one should do it. We get paid to come to work, not to get rat arsed every night. Maybe we need better guidelines, but if someone is unsure of local law, then surely they should abstain. Better safe than sorry?

And no, I'm not taking a pot shot at BA. This happens in every airline in every country. BA just happens to be the most visible target, due size and fame. But there might be some truth in the cultural differences argument. Drinking to excess is something typically British, and don't bother arguing, first hand experience and all that.

At the end of the day, the law should be respected wherever you are. And I would like to think than when I get in ANY flight anywhere, I will be safe and the crew will be fully alert and functional. That's what they are there for.

effcix :D

I think I've only said what many others have also said ....... and I practice what I preach (on my church parade :) )

Sheltered....? Non. Still I'm glad that my "outburst" moved you enough to post your first ever post!

A4 :)

Someone asked how many accidents have been attributed to alcohol in Briish aviation since the war ?

The answer is ZERO so alcohol is obviously a huge problem...NOT

Airlines have ( this is for the hacks ) a quick access recorder that monitors almost 2000 parameters that if exceeded can be investigated . Is there a correllation between early starts and incidents ? Well I've never heard of it and I'm sure we all would have if it were the case .

As for the plonker who quoted the BALPA site and BAs new route cx form , just about every investigation into CFIT or near CFIT would disagree with you . If you don't believe that good CRM is fundamental to flight safety , I really hope you are not a pilot and if you are can I do your next rte cx ?

Get off the alcohol case and get onto flight time limitations and anything else that will improve the crews situation awareness case.

Unfortunately, the names are already on page 1 of today's Times for anyone who happens to have started reading it at the front, or indeed for anyone who reads it online. The names are said to have been confirmed by the company.

Just to change the subject slightly as I am not interested in speculation and cant be bothered reading through all dross, can anyone tell me with a degree of accuracy just how long should an average Joe should allow for say a glass of wine, before flying so as to be legal at 0.2gr/1000gr?
I normally allow at least 12hrs, but without testing myself, I am now wondering if this is sufficient?
I do know it depends on your weight and health as well, but I would be interested to hear from someone who knows a lot more than me on the subject.:sad:

There is one instance of alchohol being attributable to an accident, although not in civil aviation. In the 70s, a RAF Jet Provost flew into a resevoir in Yorkshire early one morning. The pilot had been seen to partake in a quite a few bevvies late the previous evening. I'm not sure if there was medical evidence, but the Board of Inquiry attributed alchohol as a factor.

I can't see what all the fuss is about. Why the hell BA (or any airline for that matter) haven't come up with a 'No alcohol on duty' policy yet is beyond me. Lets face it, ANY alcohol isn't acceptable, let alone leaving the decision up to the very people who are drinking as to how much they should or shouldn't drink. I certainly wouldn't want to be driven around the busy skies of Europe by a pair of pissheads with hangovers....

If found guilty, sack 'em good and proper. Yeehar......:ok:

zlin 52..whatever.

your sweeping statement shows nothing but your ignorance of the whole issue.
BA DO ALREADY have a zero tolerance with regard to alcohol drinking on duty !!!? as you put it, and also with regard to residual alchohol in the blood when reporting for duty.

Further to this...it is a MINEFIELD..this 'zero' label stuff.

Another reason to get out of this god-forsaken industry ! If I could....I would. It ain't worth it.:{

According to some reports in the local media, yes. Not seen anything official on it, they are awaiting the blood tests.
Offence happend on Norwegian soil, so why not?
Jail is a common type of punishment in drunk driving cases..... :cool:

Zlin,

Trytofly is correct. There are two real issues here

1) How the hell does a pilot know if he is breaching the limit? He's told that it is 0.2 or whatever, a very low figure, but how does he determine that? The real 'rule breakers' will know for sure, they went on a bender maybe and broke all the obvious rules. That does not account for most pilots, I believe. This is an issue that the airlines have to address too. Somehow, a pilot needs to know if he 'meets the rules'. At the moment it is haphazard, to say the least. The pilot needs to ascertain if he meets the rules and givemn the 'chance' to make himself 'unavailable for duty'!

2. Short haul pilots. These are the guys most vunerable. Most normal people like a drink and who the hell can deny them that right. But, if you give a pilot the minimum 8 stautory days off in 28, then why shouldn't he be allowed to have a sensible drink during his 'time off'? The new rules would inhibit a guy the chance to even have a sensible, moderated dinner party on a legitimate day off, if he had to report the next day for duty! Again, maybe this is the airlines' problem to solve with the 'rule makers' and maybe you have to grant a 'drying out day' after the 'statutory days off'.

3. The airlines cannot just throw the 'rule book' at the pilots. They need to be proactively involved, so should the unions, such as BALPA.

It's an industry problem, not just a pilot problem. IMHO

I may be missing something here but had the captain signed for the aircraft or were the doors closed. If not they are only guilty of thinking about going flying. You cant be done for drink driving unless youve started driving, just prevented from following thru an error of judgement.

Reminds me of the duty decoy in the car park joke.

Go to any hotel with crew in it and there are off duty crew boozing. Right or wrong its a fact, so lets stop making out its confined to BA.

CH4

“1) How the hell does a pilot know if he is breaching the limit? “

You’ve got to be kidding!!!

“Short haul pilots. These are the guys most vunerable. Most normal people like a drink and who the hell can deny them that right.”

Are you saying BA pilots are “normal” human beings (people)? (tongue firmly in cheek here)
Errmm, “most vurneable” to what? Drinking and driving?

As far as I am concerned – drink yourself silly if you like, no-one can deny you this right. But the policies are set for a reason. Can’t comply?, why not choose a profession where management will tolerate intoxicated workers. (Please point me to one and I will apply) :ok:

“3. The airlines cannot just throw the 'rule book' at the pilots. They need to be proactively involved, so should the unions, such as BALPA.
It's an industry problem, not just a pilot problem. IMHO”

In THIS case; the stupidest statement I read in a while.


Oh, and this:

"Again, maybe this is the airlines' problem to solve with the 'rule makers' and maybe you have to grant a 'drying out day' after the 'statutory days off'."


Nice try at a wind-up CH4, or you are drunk.

Why do we need a judicial system? We have prattbrat instead. We weren't there, we dont know the details and you feel able to make statements like that.

I hope that you never end up in a situation like theirs, and if ever you do I hope that you are not subjected to the type of comments that you are making now.

Way out of line as we dont know the facts. Wait until due process has been followed before you comment on the outcome.

Alcohol effects
 

Just a few non-personal comments from a medical point of view.

There are health benefits to alcohol consumption. The effect is limited, however, to no more than 2 standard drinks per day, with a minimum of 2 alcohol-free days per week. Any more than that, and the adverse health effects outweigh any benefit. The WHO limits for healthy drinking (ie. not causing long term damage) are, for men, 4 standard drinks per day, and for women, 2 per day, also with a minimum of 2 alcohol-free days per week.

The performance effects of alcohol are well known, and I won't go into it here. There is also a lot of evidence of the LATE performance effects, long after the blood alcohol has returned to zero. For example, the vestibular effects after a big night are measurable for at least 36hours after the blood alcohol returns to zero.

There have been studies on the cognitive effects.

One that is easy to obtain is:

Yesavage, J.A. and Leirer, V.O. “Hangover Effects on Aircraft Pilots 14 Hours After Alcohol Ingestion: A Preliminary Report in American Journal Psychiatry 143:12, December 1986 p 1546-1550.

It found, “Using a repeated measure counterbalanced design, the authors had 10 [US] Navy P3-C Orion pilots fly two carefully designed simulated flights under control (no hangover) and hangover conditions. For the control condition, pilots drank no alcohol within 48 hours before the simulated flight. For the hangover condition, they flew 14 hours after drinking enough ethanol mixed with diet soft drinks (the equivalent of 6-7 standard drinks) to attain a blood alcohol concentration of 100 mg/dl [BAC of 0.1%]. Pilot performance was worse in the hangover condition on virtually all measures but significantly worse on three of six variance measures". The performance decrement has been attributed to alcohol’s impairment of both working memory, and the ability to divide attention between tasks. Alcohol also reduces the ability to perform non-routine acts, and has an even greater effect when an alternative, non-typical response is required. In terms of pilot performance, this suggests that in emergency conditions, the adverse performance effects of alcohol may be most pronounced.

It has also been shown in a number of scientific studies that, particularly at higher doses, the consumption of alcohol before sleep, causes increased wake periods, or light Stage 1 sleep, especially during the second half of the sleep period. Alcohol is also a diuretic, resulting in increased urine production, and frequently hence the need to urinate during the night, further disrupting sleep.

At levels of alcohol significantly below that which could have been expected following the consumption of 6 standard drinks, next- day alertness and divided-attention performance haves been measured to be impaired. This illustrates that alcohol consumption can directly impair daytime alertness and performance through disruptive effects on sleep.

No one is saying don't enjoy a drink. 1 or 2 drinks 8 hours before reporting for duty will be gone in those with normal alcohol metabolism. But it is also important to remember that just because you have a zero blood alcohol after a large number of drinks doesn't mean that you won't be significantly impaired.

Cheers,

BM

The Royal Navy used to define drunkenness in general terms, as being unable to perform any task that could reasonably be asked of the person in question.
Watching Jolly Jack trying to compose himself before "walking" up the plank after a run ashore was one of the few pleasures for Officer of the Watch alongside in port.

Prattbrat

Just a suggestion but have you considered a career in politics?

Boozing is perfectly acceptable indeed, I believe "George W" had a bit of an "alcohol problem" but that did not stop him making it all the way to the top.

Mind you given some of his recent decisions, I think the world would be a safer place if he reverted to his old lifestyle. You know like that Russian President from a few years ago... the happy one who was always having a laugh conducting bands...smiling a lot!

Regards BP

edited spelling grammar etc

You can however be prosecuted for being 'In charge' which has a similar penalty,however the 12 month disqualification isn't mandatory in an 'In charge case'

You technically become in charge of a motor vehicle the moment you pick up the keys.

For example if you were found to be in excess of the limit whilst in a car in possession of the keys,regardless of whether they were in the ignition or not you are guilty of an offence..unless you can prove that you had no intention of driving the vehicle

eg: you were intending to sleep in it or you were looking for something in the glove compartment

In this instance the burden of proof is on you,that is YOU have to prove that you had no intention of driving the vehicle.


In practice most police forces will wait until you attempt to move the vehicle and then collar you,just to build a stronger case and go for the driving offence,which is a lot easier to prove and a lot harder to wriggle out of


I have no idea how this relates to aviation,but I thought I should clear up that particular point for your own good

Just in case!

Interesing point you raise, Rowardennan.

I'm afraid it says a lot about the society that the police would rather than wait until an offence has been comitted than prevent it!

Having followed the debate, though, I draw the conclusion, by mixing the various sources that one could, if one dared, consume one unit of alcohol whilst on duty and remain below the o.2 promille limit with the blessing of the WHO.

Fortunately , the SOP's state "No alcohol whilst on duty or in uniform!!"

Farty - yes, you are missing something.....intent.

The very fact that they turned up to work is good enough evidence in the eyes of British Law, as Rowardennan correctly mentions with regard to drinking and driving.

The crew (if the allegations are true), would have been better off pulling a sicky. (I know of no one who has turned up to work, in uniform, with the intention reporting in sick - and if it was these guys' intention, they'll struggle to prove it...)

Let's face it we all know it happens and is certainly not confined to BA, unfortunately for them, got caught.....

Pratbratt

All I can say is that, as common here, you 'engage mouth before brain'. If you really bothered to read what I said, you might at least understand what I was saying! Maybe you' too, are too pissed or stupid to listen to what others say here?

'How does a pilot know if he is complying with the legislation?' We are told that the limit for flying an airplane is maybe a quater of the limit for driving a car in the UK. Depending on size, weight, metabolism of the individual etc, that translates to maybe a quarter of two pints of beer, less if you are a small guy.

I'm not advocating drinking to the limit, but you will understand many people's predicament here. My example of a dinner party, on a day off, followed by a report for duty next day is a real issue. Can you have one glass of wine at 9 pm or two? Who the hell knows? They need to know, otherwise they will unknowingly and unwillingly fall foul of the rules.

But a 'day off' should be just that; a day in which you can do what the hell you want and unwind. If you fly close to the 900 hr limit a year, you SHOULD be entitled to do what the hell you want on your day off.

All I was saying is, the agencies involved (airlines and unions) need to get their act together and help and advise all pilots. I'm not stating that the rules are wrong. Does that make sense to you Prattbrat? I doubt it! Will I get a sensible answer form this guy? Forgive me for being a cynic!

and btw Prattbratt, I think you could do with a drink to calm down and chill out; maybe then you can rejoin the human race!

CH4,

I'll tell you how. By staying off the sherbets and not drinking anything vaguely alcoholic before piloting an aircraft, especially one thats carrying 100+ passengers who expect the Captain to be sober!

If people can't have a good night out without getting tanked up, then they havent got much of a life..

P.S I'm not some freaky temperence campaigner by the way. I do like a pint or three (of proper beer, not that cheap foreign piss), but in the right circumstances..

Hic..

Zlin

You too put mouth into gear before brain. RTFQ! Answer my question please....How much can a pilot drink before reporting for duty without exceeding the limts?

We are not talking about drinking at the gate or the door of the airplane; how much 8 hours before? Do you know hw much is acceptable?

That is my question.

RTFQ

CH4,

No need to swear old chap, I did read the question...No need to be aggressive

I don't know how much a pilot can drink before being over the limit. And I'm sure he/she doesn't either, which is why I advocate not drinking alcohol at all anywhere near an aeroplane, either before, after or during the flight in question. 8 Hours/12 hours who knows?? Depends on lots of factors, size, weight, full or empty stomach etc..

Part of the problem of alcohol related deaths on UK roads is the fact that people are allowed to drink a certain amount before being 'over the limit'. Make it illegal to drink any alcohol whilst driving/flying and there would be no doubt.

Sure it wouldn't stop people drinking and driving, but at least we'd all know where we stood with the limits i.e zero alcohol. Get caught, get prosecuted..easy

Anyone who needs alcohol to cope with anything needs to see a doctor.

Have nice day:ok:

The average male metabolises about 1 standard drink per hour. There is a fair bit of individual variation though, and a lot of variables including the type of alcohol, and the presence of food in the gut.

As I said in the earlier post, just timing your drinking so you arrive at the gate with a zero blood alcohol is only part of the story. There are a lot of effects on performance long after the blood alcohol reaches zero. So it depends on whether you just want to comply with the letter of the law, written for the lowest common denominator, or whether you want to maximise your performance as a professional aviator.

Cheers,

BM

CH4

Don't let them wind you up.

Zlin5....whatever
and
pratt or bratt ( either works for me )

CH4 is trying to establish a more useable bottom line...one that is understandable by all, assessable by all and sensible. I do not believe he is saying it is ok to drink the night before a flight, but that there is a wider issue here.

Pooling ideas creates the best solutions.

Stubborn characters have killed more airline passengers than all the beer on the planet ! That is a fact.
Your attitudes are ( at best ) stubborn, narrow, selfish, etc etc

try listening and understanding before opening gob !

zlin

just seen your last post as I put the above in.

Yes...zero tolerance is in fact how it is now in BA. One will not report with any alchohol in ones blood or one will be sacked.
I think I explained this to you earlier.

This is not a suggestion to a new rule....it is already there.

So, how does this help me know when I have to stop drinking ?
Is it 24 hrs, 36 hrs, 48 hrs...1 week ?? Come on...how do we know ?

Perhaps we should be given the opportunity to breathalyse ourselves as we report...a sort of amnesty time, just in case that glass of red wine of 36hrs ago is still there.

It is not such an easy issue.

Zlin

Thank you; you did answer my question. You don't know either! How much you can drink on a night off before reporting for duty the next day, without exceeding the limit? That is exactly my point; someone needs to advise pilots what the limit is. Who the f***k knows what 0.02 is? I don't, do you?

Educate us all and we can keep within the rules. That's why I potentially have a lot of sympathy with the crew concerned!

P.S. Trytofly. at least I can identify with someone who is on the same planet as me, 'talks the same language'! :O

Nothing to do with whether Nigel had a a few too many G & T's.

However there seems to be a few posters on here who need to pull their finger out of their holier than thou anally retentive a*rse h*oles

Most crews on a nightstop will have a beer or two, this is normal, like it or not. Posters who say 'you have a problem if you need alcohol to relax'. Retire or go back to your bible.

B*llox to the human performance question: which of these is not an accepted form of relaxation after a flight. It happens, and no I'm not an alcoholic.

However most of the 'Most' crews know when to draw the line, now will you all please shut up.

Smellster

XXX

Bottom line - Only Captain Nigel could afford to get tanked in Norway!!!!

Take a deep breath normal_nigel. The Suns 'supergrass' isn't an ex-pilot, he's an ex-steward, although he wasn't sacked for 'sleeping off a hangover'. He was fired for sexually harassing several stewardesses, amongst other matters. Strange how the Sun didn't choose to mention that in their description of the lying toerag. Besides, he'll get his comeuppance. Anyone living in 'Old Windsor' should really think carefully before slating BA crew. I believe whatshername from Dispatches had to spend her 30 pieces of silver on moving house afterwards!

In the US (for what it is worth...), the airline managements only want to severely punish anyone whose actions create any sort of negative publicity for the airline, no matter what the reason, and the FAA can and will do anything to justify its over-bloated bureaucracy. Never mind hoping that any airlines can be motivated to try to better clarify how much alcohol any person, i.e. 170 lbs, can legally consume about xy hours before departure time! However, if a member of the Board of Directors was found by airport security to have a 'smoking' pipe when traveling out west, then not even a wrist was slapped..................................................... ..................

Remember, many airlines and the FAA are run by lawyers/barristers/solicitors (or CPAs), not people who initially had any interest in airline operations or aviation.

Don't forget that in many hotels, various anonymous airline employees (staff) or airline mgmt types can be sitting next to you in the bar-sometimes a few passengers who you just flew in. They can recognize us from quite a distance, even in street clothes! I have recognized several unfamiliar pilots here in casual clothing, just by the way they walk through Clark Tower parking lot on a layover, and have chatted with them just to prove it!

Many people in the hotel/restaurant industry have a grudge against all airline pilots, many of whom have often overheard very loose talk and worse, distorted rumours, about salaries (one airline here pays lots of overtime so pilots working on multiple "days off" can pay for two ex-wives, or furniture for the home, which had almost none...), total days off, homes, boats, cars and the well-known fact that all of us earn huge salaries and only sit there and push buttons, which requires no systems, FOM, weather or other procedural knowledge, judgement and the ability to often coordinate many things at once in crappy weather etc.:oh: