Hailstones
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stormcloud
If that's the case, then you're in no position to have any experience of the culture within that company, nor to know what sort of questions they ask in situations such as this.
You obviously assume that "appropriate questions", to quote you again, are the norm within all companies.
No I don't fly for bmi!
You obviously assume that "appropriate questions", to quote you again, are the norm within all companies.
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AC,
Any company will ask questions to find out what happened which would be appropriate. If they are not happy we will presumably hear of the outcome.
I don't think its 'blatantly obviously pilot error' as stated by dicky and that was my point.
I may have been at bmi in the past, you don't know.
Having done the union rep time and been there when the questions were asked I may have more insight than you give me credit for!
I also assume that the AAIB will ask the appropriate questions as well if they are involved.
By the tone of your post you appear to have been bitten in the past. Some support for your colleagues would'nt go amiss instead of the guilty as charged stance you appear to support.
stormcloud
Any company will ask questions to find out what happened which would be appropriate. If they are not happy we will presumably hear of the outcome.
I don't think its 'blatantly obviously pilot error' as stated by dicky and that was my point.
I may have been at bmi in the past, you don't know.
Having done the union rep time and been there when the questions were asked I may have more insight than you give me credit for!
I also assume that the AAIB will ask the appropriate questions as well if they are involved.
By the tone of your post you appear to have been bitten in the past. Some support for your colleagues would'nt go amiss instead of the guilty as charged stance you appear to support.
stormcloud
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Sideshowbob
Didn't do the pax much good either, I can tell you.
PS Sorry I'm late - I was sat on a Welsh mountain with no laptop.
Didn't do the pax much good either, I can tell you.
PS Sorry I'm late - I was sat on a Welsh mountain with no laptop.
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Has anybody read the book "The Day the Sky Fell Down The story of the Stockport Air Disaster" by Steve Morrin. The book says that British Midland has had 6 fatal air crashes since 1961 did anyone no that?
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Storm cloud , your point 2, word one, says it all.
also whats it got to do with ego. there is a good chance that if they had been doing what they are paid for in the first instance , they wouldnt have had to do what they are paid for later on.
proper use and monitoring , followed by a very wide berth of weather will keep you out of most trouble. as i was out and about the same time i know there was nothing around out of the ordinary.
you state in a later post that we should give a colleague more support or words to that effect. dont assume that because i share a qualification with other people that i have some sort of brotherly bond. nothing could be further from the truth particularly in an industry (uk aviation) infested with pomposity , snobbery and general arrogance.
oh by the way cute little icon, wash your mouth out.
also whats it got to do with ego. there is a good chance that if they had been doing what they are paid for in the first instance , they wouldnt have had to do what they are paid for later on.
proper use and monitoring , followed by a very wide berth of weather will keep you out of most trouble. as i was out and about the same time i know there was nothing around out of the ordinary.
you state in a later post that we should give a colleague more support or words to that effect. dont assume that because i share a qualification with other people that i have some sort of brotherly bond. nothing could be further from the truth particularly in an industry (uk aviation) infested with pomposity , snobbery and general arrogance.
oh by the way cute little icon, wash your mouth out.
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Smalldick said-
"nothing could be further from the truth particularly in an industry (uk aviation) infested with pomposity , snobbery and general arrogance."
I don't know about pomposity and snobbery but you sure as hell fit the arrogance catagory very well.
"nothing could be further from the truth particularly in an industry (uk aviation) infested with pomposity , snobbery and general arrogance."
I don't know about pomposity and snobbery but you sure as hell fit the arrogance catagory very well.
Hear hear Woolf, Dickistiny sounds like a guy who doesn't like his job, the way he describes it.
How about jacking it in to let the rest of us have a go eh? If you think UK civ air is full of what you so elegantly describe.
How about jacking it in to let the rest of us have a go eh? If you think UK civ air is full of what you so elegantly describe.
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Smalldick,
Interesting to see that Flight are quoting BMI as saying the 'radar did not show the hail'.
Blatant mis- representation I expect you to say.
or are they all out to get you
Toodle pip.
Interesting to see that Flight are quoting BMI as saying the 'radar did not show the hail'.
Blatant mis- representation I expect you to say.
or are they all out to get you Toodle pip.
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I hear this aircraft is now in Toulouse with an expected repair time of 3 months !?!
Can this be true ? Anyone have any more info, seems an incredibly long time for what damage there was.
Can this be true ? Anyone have any more info, seems an incredibly long time for what damage there was.
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dicksynormous sounds to me like a straightforward guy who's been round the block a few times, lives in the real world and states his opinion directly and honestly.
It might be worth a review of his posts, especially if some of you do think of "having a go" yourselves. Some outfits are not for the naive.
It might be worth a review of his posts, especially if some of you do think of "having a go" yourselves. Some outfits are not for the naive.
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Opinions are like *******s, all different!
Hey guys
Don't post on here very often, but just wanted to pass on a word of support to the poor guys at the centre of this sitting at home and maybe reading some of the 'all seeing, all knowing' postings on here.
Firstly having flown for BMI in the past for 5 years I can say that they are as committed to a safe operation as any I have known, and have always taken the view that every incident has many solutions, and very few are all right or all wrong. Secondly, they don't give Commands away, and the man in the left hand seat was as competent and receptive to suggestions as any I have ever flown with, with BMI or my present employer.
I have flown aircraft with a supposedly properly calibrated and serviceable WXR that wasn't painting anything other than pastures green when I was looking straight at a text-book cell 20 miles on the nose. I have also flown with experienced skippers that elected to fly us straight through a red return in a 60 knot wind saying that the windspeed was causing a large doppler return, and that it was just precipitation. And guess what? They were quite right, not even a bump. I would never have believe it myself...
As for the diverting, well without wishing to get too embroiled, but personally if I didn't have any adverse engine readings, there were no pressurisation restrictions on a cracked screen, and the aeroplane was flying normally then I too would continue to the home base, an airfield I was familiar with, rather than strand it 700 miles from home. You've got to land it somewhere, just as much risk landing anywhere. And I'm sorry, but at least 50% of experienced crews would agree I'm sure. But as ever, it's always the detractors who shout loudest.
All I'm trying to say here is, there is always a small element of luck involved in this profession, our job is to minimise or negate it's effects on the safe outcome of the flight. But sometimes even the most competent get caught out. And of course we also occassionally witness the most incompetent getting through by the skin of their teeth. What we do all hope is that if we happen to be the poor ba****ds that get caught out or run out of preferrable options then our colleagues offer a little more professional courtesy and support, and not uninformed, presumptuous opinion.
Don't post on here very often, but just wanted to pass on a word of support to the poor guys at the centre of this sitting at home and maybe reading some of the 'all seeing, all knowing' postings on here.
Firstly having flown for BMI in the past for 5 years I can say that they are as committed to a safe operation as any I have known, and have always taken the view that every incident has many solutions, and very few are all right or all wrong. Secondly, they don't give Commands away, and the man in the left hand seat was as competent and receptive to suggestions as any I have ever flown with, with BMI or my present employer.
I have flown aircraft with a supposedly properly calibrated and serviceable WXR that wasn't painting anything other than pastures green when I was looking straight at a text-book cell 20 miles on the nose. I have also flown with experienced skippers that elected to fly us straight through a red return in a 60 knot wind saying that the windspeed was causing a large doppler return, and that it was just precipitation. And guess what? They were quite right, not even a bump. I would never have believe it myself...
As for the diverting, well without wishing to get too embroiled, but personally if I didn't have any adverse engine readings, there were no pressurisation restrictions on a cracked screen, and the aeroplane was flying normally then I too would continue to the home base, an airfield I was familiar with, rather than strand it 700 miles from home. You've got to land it somewhere, just as much risk landing anywhere. And I'm sorry, but at least 50% of experienced crews would agree I'm sure. But as ever, it's always the detractors who shout loudest.
All I'm trying to say here is, there is always a small element of luck involved in this profession, our job is to minimise or negate it's effects on the safe outcome of the flight. But sometimes even the most competent get caught out. And of course we also occassionally witness the most incompetent getting through by the skin of their teeth. What we do all hope is that if we happen to be the poor ba****ds that get caught out or run out of preferrable options then our colleagues offer a little more professional courtesy and support, and not uninformed, presumptuous opinion.
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From "Your Guide to Weather Radar" - published by Rockwell Collins. Page 19. Quote:
The reflectivity factor for some forms of precipitation is difficult to determine. Hail, for instance, occurs in many forms such as dry particles, water coated particles and melted particles. Additionally, hailstones are irregular in shape and do not provide a consistent return. Water reflects about five times more radar energy than solid ice particles of the same mass. Unquote.
Further to my above. At high altitudes where the tops of Cb may be invisible on radar due dry ice crystals, some radar manuals recommend you switch from Cal. gain to Max gain. This extra power will often reveal a small return from the tops of a Cb - enough to alert a cunning pilot at night or in IMC that something big ahead is waiting to belt the daylights out of the aircraft. Simply adjust the tilt for confirmation. I have trundled around a hundred such monsters using that technique.
Also if obvious unhealthy clouds simply refuse to show up on radar except at very short range, then tell the technicians to closely examine the radome for pin hole leaks. Water gets into the inside of the radome and freezes. This coats the inside with ice and the radar is severely attenuated - that is, has little penetration. Hence apparent short range.
It is usually ground tested serviceable because by then the water has melted. Then on the next climb the moisture inside the honeycomb re-freezes - and so on. We found this by photographing various Cb when spotting them visually and then photographing the radar screen. Then we sent the results to the Bendix Radar people in USA and they in turn told us to check out the radome. Our techs did just that and located the pin hole leaks. The radome is removed and baked in a special oven to dry out the moisture and the holes repaired. Hey presto! a fully serviceable radar next time.
The reflectivity factor for some forms of precipitation is difficult to determine. Hail, for instance, occurs in many forms such as dry particles, water coated particles and melted particles. Additionally, hailstones are irregular in shape and do not provide a consistent return. Water reflects about five times more radar energy than solid ice particles of the same mass. Unquote.
Further to my above. At high altitudes where the tops of Cb may be invisible on radar due dry ice crystals, some radar manuals recommend you switch from Cal. gain to Max gain. This extra power will often reveal a small return from the tops of a Cb - enough to alert a cunning pilot at night or in IMC that something big ahead is waiting to belt the daylights out of the aircraft. Simply adjust the tilt for confirmation. I have trundled around a hundred such monsters using that technique.
Also if obvious unhealthy clouds simply refuse to show up on radar except at very short range, then tell the technicians to closely examine the radome for pin hole leaks. Water gets into the inside of the radome and freezes. This coats the inside with ice and the radar is severely attenuated - that is, has little penetration. Hence apparent short range.
It is usually ground tested serviceable because by then the water has melted. Then on the next climb the moisture inside the honeycomb re-freezes - and so on. We found this by photographing various Cb when spotting them visually and then photographing the radar screen. Then we sent the results to the Bendix Radar people in USA and they in turn told us to check out the radome. Our techs did just that and located the pin hole leaks. The radome is removed and baked in a special oven to dry out the moisture and the holes repaired. Hey presto! a fully serviceable radar next time.
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"Water gets into the inside of the radome and freezes. This coats the inside with ice and the radar is severely attenuated - that is, has little penetration. Hence apparent short range."
Well there you go, I never knew that! Thanks for that. Makes you wonder why there isn't a more thorough training into practical use of WXR, for example nowhere within a/c tech manuals have I ever been able to find out the most basic information, like the cone angle, I've always had to dig it up elsewhere on tech forums.
Well there you go, I never knew that! Thanks for that. Makes you wonder why there isn't a more thorough training into practical use of WXR, for example nowhere within a/c tech manuals have I ever been able to find out the most basic information, like the cone angle, I've always had to dig it up elsewhere on tech forums.
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Stormcloud, do i detect a sense of humour lurking in the background?
training risky: i consider myself duty bound to stay in this fir and stop you getting a job.
anthony : thanks for your post its very difficult to voice a dissenting or non establishment post with out the standard british captain or their sycophantic wannabe apologists trying to shout you down.
my point, been there with and without radar in some stormier areas and in 12000 hrs not had that sort of problem with the modern facilities available so it is as obligatory to question the obvious possible errors as it is to give benefit of the doubt based on what happened and the sort of mistakes i've seen and made.getting away with stuff doesnt mean it wasnt potentially my fault.
however it seems to be a greater offence in general to question this god given command authority than voice an opinion. 
training risky: i consider myself duty bound to stay in this fir and stop you getting a job.
anthony : thanks for your post its very difficult to voice a dissenting or non establishment post with out the standard british captain or their sycophantic wannabe apologists trying to shout you down.
my point, been there with and without radar in some stormier areas and in 12000 hrs not had that sort of problem with the modern facilities available so it is as obligatory to question the obvious possible errors as it is to give benefit of the doubt based on what happened and the sort of mistakes i've seen and made.getting away with stuff doesnt mean it wasnt potentially my fault.
however it seems to be a greater offence in general to question this god given command authority than voice an opinion.
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Dicky,
As your 12,000 and my more humble 8,000 will show, a sense of humour comes near the top of the list.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but equally, we should all be entitled to be properly judged and not damned by the 'GUILTY until proven innocent' line you rather blatently bellowed in your post.
I concede your point that we should question the obvious possible errors but questioning is very different from your original posting - 'obvious pilot error'.
As your 12,000 and my more humble 8,000 will show, a sense of humour comes near the top of the list.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but equally, we should all be entitled to be properly judged and not damned by the 'GUILTY until proven innocent' line you rather blatently bellowed in your post.
I concede your point that we should question the obvious possible errors but questioning is very different from your original posting - 'obvious pilot error'.
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For the last time its dickSy,
ok remove "obviously" and insert "based on my experience it was probably".
By the way recent interaction in europe between bmi baby and ba.
ba requested 40 right to avoid. controller asked baby if they wanted the same as ba. Following same track.
no , followed by sarcastic comment from baby followed refering to ba qualifications.was the answer.
10 minutes later baby asked for 20 left to avoid same weather.(now downwind of extensive embedded)
Rather innapropiate considering recent events. also not a little damning
ok remove "obviously" and insert "based on my experience it was probably".
By the way recent interaction in europe between bmi baby and ba.
ba requested 40 right to avoid. controller asked baby if they wanted the same as ba. Following same track.
no , followed by sarcastic comment from baby followed refering to ba qualifications.was the answer.
10 minutes later baby asked for 20 left to avoid same weather.(now downwind of extensive embedded)
Rather innapropiate considering recent events. also not a little damning
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10 mins is a long time in the life of a cb. Other cells developing may have precluded a right turn at that point.
By the way = rumour.
Recent = probably nothing to do with this flight.
Rather inappropriate considering = different day/circumstances/crew/life/grid/planet.
Damning = your opinion (which, of course, you are free to speak provided we are free to disagree
)
Should have been a lawyer, but then again I like the view!
By the way = rumour.
Recent = probably nothing to do with this flight.
Rather inappropriate considering = different day/circumstances/crew/life/grid/planet.
Damning = your opinion (which, of course, you are free to speak provided we are free to disagree
)Should have been a lawyer, but then again I like the view!
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Dicky
I hope you will repeat all your previous comments when the AAIB publish their findings. Then perhaps you will be shown to live up to your name.
Anne
BTW I do fly for bmi and would echo the comments of Chillyfly
I hope you will repeat all your previous comments when the AAIB publish their findings. Then perhaps you will be shown to live up to your name.
Anne
BTW I do fly for bmi and would echo the comments of Chillyfly
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chillifly
Just wondering about the point you made about ice in the Wx Radar. Could the continuous melting/re-freezing of water act as it does in the physical weathering of rocks e.g. freeze-thaw?
good old A-Level geography!
Matt
good old A-Level geography!
Matt
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So what's the latest on this one then?Flight crew still flying?Suspended?Sacked? What ?
Not expecting many answers.The bmi mob seem very apathetic or something or is that my imagination.
Not expecting many answers.The bmi mob seem very apathetic or something or is that my imagination.