Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

FLYBE in to the black,but at what cost !!

Wikiposts
Search
Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

FLYBE in to the black,but at what cost !!

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 16th May 2003, 23:49
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: gatwick
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FLYBE in to the black,but at what cost !!

JF and his team have certainly done a great job, turning round a £20m loss in one year.
What about the cost ?
1.Rock bottom morale
2.Pilots and cabin staff leaving in droves
3.wages well below the industry norm
4.the CRJ fiasco.

Talking about new routes and replacing the 146's with 737's or whatever, is not going to stem the tide.
Unless the above issues are addressed quickly it's going to be a question of "will the last person to leave, please switch off the light"
snodgrass is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 01:03
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South of Watford
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
SG

The number of resignations have not significantly increased since the 4% payrise was announced so my guess is that they have pitched it at about the minimum neccessary to not make matters worse. In order to make a real difference the increase would have to be 20-30% which would never happen.

BALPA seem to be have made no in-roads into the negotiations. As always we all have 2 options shut up or walk.
pitotheat is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 01:43
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: england
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
bit of wishful thinking goin on here. How many Jet Captains have left recently?
No doubt about it, Flybe really should put theie T's and C's in order but there really aren't the jobs out there to trigger an exodus of experienced Jet Captains. That may change in time but unlikely in the near future.
carlos vandango is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 01:59
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Talking

73's ha

There is no way they will get a popular aircraft like that.
The reasons are very simple,they would have to pay the going rate for 73 drivers and there is no way the MD would do that while he continues to hate flight deck.
What they aspire to do is go for an all turboprop operation therefore enabling them to force the arificial low paydeal through as there is nothing to compare it to.
They have been using the old 73 line in exit interviews as a last hope for a while now.


Rgds K.I.L.

Last edited by keepitlit; 17th May 2003 at 03:42.
keepitlit is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 06:13
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: NZ
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I see the flybe bashing machine is at it again!

The truth is somewhat different to a lot of what is written above.

There is no intention to go all turboprop- that urban myth has been doing the rounds for ages. If you think about it, there is no way that could happen- it would mean, at the very least, the loss of all the Air France routes. Also, many routes are more often than not sustaining more than 90 pax per rotation- hard to do that in a Q400 without installing roof straps.

Many different airlines have different rates for 737 drivers, so the idea that aircraft selection is based on pilot salaries- laughable anyway- doesn't fly.

The Q400 is directly comparable with some other types, for example ATR72, Saab 2000, ATP. Well, maybe the ATP is in a class of it's own!

As for the MD hating flight deck- complete cobblers. I'm flight deck, have had several meetings with him, and have found him unfailingly attentive, pro-active and considerate of the needs of pilots- as he in fact is towards all the employees. I have always had prompt replies to emails I have sent him, for example.

What many people seem to forget is that he is trying to run a business. There has been no money for pay rises for some time- there is no point asking for a pay rise if the money isn't there for it (or if it would be irresponsible to do so in the financial climate prevailing at the time). The trick now is to obtain a pay rise that reflects the companies circumstances- insisting on a big pay rise would likely result in redundancies, or, as in the case of some big US carriers, severe pay cuts a year or so down the line.

I for one am very happy that the MDs plan has resulted in my continued employment. There have been some sticky moments in the last two years. It would have been much easier to re-start the business entirely, or make swingeing cuts in pay and lots of redundancies to realise the financial targets. We (the employees) are actually extraordinarily lucky- although few would agree, I guess.

Folks in flybe mostly realise that we are in a rebuilding phase. Yes, there are many problems with salaries, T&Cs, rostering practices etc. Yes, we need to see progress in these areas. But first things first!

Now just hang on while I get my (flouresecent yellow) flak jacket on...
Raw Data is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 11:41
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Question

Commander Raw Data,

For a pilot curently in a base from where his type is being withdrawn, and where most of the pilots who were content with their lot are being asked to move to Southampton to retain their job at the complete expense of lifestyle. something which the company seems to consider quite acceptable. You seem oddly up beat about the current circumstances. Towing the company line is very commendable especially when when it seems FlyBe jet jobs north of the border are soon to be a thing of the past!

FlyBe/British European/Jersey have always been the employers of some of the finest, most loyal and in recent times, by necessity, tolerant crews but even you must admit that the tolerance is reaching breaking point!
JazzyKex is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 17:59
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I had just writen a very long reply and got a lot of points of my chest when my computer coughed and I lost it.

I do believe that we are going to a single fleet.
We have lost contracts already the air bridge for example.
We have lost air france routes on the crj to city jet and brit air already in the past. Before anyone blames the crj remember air france has them operating on many of their routes.
Following a kick start meeting where I was lied to by someone I am supposed to respect I shall be leaving asap.
Oh and I am a jet captain looking around and what was the great company I joined.

bakedbean is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 18:56
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Raw Data,

please correct me if I am wrong. But thought I saw your name not that long ago looking for an other job as well.
I know plenty of people at BE and always hear that when they have JF on board he never makes the effort to go on the flightdeck to shake a hand. (and this is not because the door is locked and all)
Would make me wonder as well......

Aviation is not doing 'that great' at the moment, but people still leave flybe for other jobs. Says it all I guess. What happens if the business picks up?? Total exodus?!? It doesn't take much to seduce a flybe pilot! Seems that easy is giving flybe a bit of a sensitive blow, taking on loads of flybe pilots. for flybe.

Loyalty will only work two ways, but after years of one way traffic the loyalty seems to be running out! bakedbean seems to be a good example of this.

bakedbean, it has always been with flybe like it is now and most likely it will never change, so do what is best for you mate. Good luck!

Ptt
Push to talk is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 19:11
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South of Watford
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RD

You seem rather upbeat for someone who is considering returing home rather than fly a ghastly TP or suffer another base move. Safe journey to NZ you will be sorely missed.............................
pitotheat is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 21:23
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: NZ
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wow, civilised responses... whatever is happening to PPRuNe...

JazzyKex (cool username BTW)

I'm obviously not overjoyed at what is happening at EDI, however having positioned to BHX about a zillion times in the last few weeks, I have noticed that all the flights I have been on (mostly in the middle of the day) have been full or very close to it. It seems to me that EDI-BHX is close to being ready for a jet.

I do agree, many people are pretty disillusioned at the moment. I am only upbeat because the company as a whole is on the up-and-up; the world does not revolve around my problems. A strong company ultimately benefits us all (or those of us who choose to stay). Many will stay, for a variety of reasons- for example not everybody want to work to FTL limits, get shafted w.r.t. bases etc.

bakedbean

You might think we are going to a single fleet- I have no idea why you think that, when we clearly need a 100+ seat aircraft for the routes we operate and the number of pax we carry on many of those routes. I suppose it is possible that all the directors have lied to us, that the people tasked with identifying a new type are actually just reading the paper all day, and that we don't intend to grow as a company. But I think not.

Yes we have lost a contract, but we have also picked up a lot of very lucrative work (for example some of the new charters).

Push to talk

Most pilots like to investigate new options, I'm no different... If you had ever lived in NZ, you would understand...

People will always move on from airlines like flybe, most want to advance and of course if you are ambitious you need to have a Boeing or an Airbus on your licence. It has always been this way.

Easy has taken quite a few of our guys and gals, no surprise there as the equipment is better and the pay higher. Having said that, in the last few months we have also had a few wanting to return to flybe from Easy. Some have realised that despite the pay and equipment, there are times when the workload and other issues are not worth it. Easy is no paradise.

I agree though, that communication from our senior management is a serious problem. It has always been so, however a few of us have been vocal about it and hopefully it will change. FWIW, I have had a visit on the flight deck from our MD, but I assume he prefers not to in the current climate... I can also say that communication is a two-way street, most pilots sit in small groups and talk up a storm, but few actually pick up the phone and speak with a manager.

pitotheat

Would you want to fly a Q400...!!!

It might be a wonderful money-making tool, but from a pilots point of view... no thanks.

I think my point is that as long as I am in the company, I will support it as much as I can. It is actually a very good company- despite the bad press, we do treat our people pretty well... for example sticking by pilots with long-term medical problems rather than just ditching them. Most of it is not seen by most folk, but from many points of view, flybe is an excellent company. There are some obvious blind spots, but that is true for any company.

If and when I leave, it won't be because I don't like the company; more to do with other aspects of life.

If I didn't like the company, or where it is going, I would leave as soon as I could. So should anyone who has a problem with flybe, for their sake as much as for the company.

In the meantime, I will unashamedly support the company that pays my salary (whilst fighting hard to change some of the internal frustrations).

And if all that stuff makes you want to vomit... sorry! (not).

Raw Data is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 21:51
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Raw,
Love the rose tinted glasses which you look through,
Back in the real world 5 D8Q4's in BHD and one fisherprice jet.
Looks pretty one way to me!
Now they will have 146 skippers on jet money(sorry Flybe jet money) moving over to the dash and tp captains on the same aircraft on considerable less money.

Cadets climbing the walls to get out!(no prospects)
If they take a command,their mates on average jet money are still on more.

Oh and average jet operator salaries are within 2/3K not 10/15 behind the hole industry.

RD I admire you upbeat,P.M.A. but your loyality will go with the rest of the good will that flybe/BE/JE have lived on for a long time.
(as a distant memory)

I sincerly hope they do get their act together as there is still enough time to get all the loyal long timers back on side and they will do well but as stated before "it takes 2 baby"

Rdgs K.I.L.
keepitlit is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 22:17
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
keepitlit - You seem to be on a bit of a downer on flyBE, I had hoped you might be more grateful as they gave you a job when no-one else would have you. Take some advice from one who hears a lot and says very little, but if it were me I would keep the old trap shut and shuffle gracefully back to the big blue bus...you never know when you might need another comfy seat the next time bmi start "downsizing"....
rathlin is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 22:29
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
rathlin or what ever
I see you just reregistered,why!Do i know you?
with regards to your comments,get your facts right,before you try to impress me with your (lack of)knowledge.
I am merly airing my views of which these forums are set up for.

Rgd K.I.L.

P.S. i didnt start the forum,but hey i must of got under your skin,
I suppose I could hide behind a different name but then again im only stating what every one else knows.

No one else want you!

Last edited by keepitlit; 17th May 2003 at 22:53.
keepitlit is offline  
Old 17th May 2003, 23:19
  #14 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: gatwick
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
OK guys, perhaps I'm a bit naive. But when I started this post I really did'nt want to start a Flybe slagging contest !!
Once again;
When everybody else is going into the red, JF and his team get us back into the black...a fantastic achievement by anybody's standards, especially in this financial climate.
Whats needed now is some real leadership to get the morale moving in the right direction.
JF has admitted at kickstart that he was wrong and the 146 is simply not big enough to shift the passenger numbers he needs to move the Company forward. Therefore there is no way the Company will be an all D8-400 fleet, not unless Bombardier intend to build a 150 seat version ! The 400 will eventually be used to go into places that the 737's of EJ and Ryanair just can't go.
The pay may not be brilliant, we may not be flying shiny new 73's or Airbuses but many people in the Company are feeling a hell of a lot more secure now than this time last year.
As for going to EJ...... I'd rather give up flying and become a plumber !!
snodgrass is offline  
Old 18th May 2003, 00:35
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: NZ
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
keepitlit

Fair enough- I hear what you are saying. My only response would be that what is happening at BHD doesn't reflect what is happening to the company as a whole- SOU is the bright shiny new base, and it is definitely a jet base. As BHD doesn't serve more distant destinations in Europe, it is only logical to go for a mainly turboprop operation.

The other point is that the majority of our charter destinations cannot be served by the Q400- not enough seats (or performance). Charters make us a lot of money.

Regarding no prospects- don't quite understand that. A cadet in this company can look forward to jet command, or turboprop command a bit sooner if he or she so desires. What is there to look forward to in Easyjet? A 737 command- maybe- if you keep the right people happy (such are the vagaries of a non-seniority based promotion system). Same goes for training slots- far more possibilities with us.

Anyway... time will tell.

snodgrass

Quite. I wouldn't want to go to Easy either!
Raw Data is offline  
Old 18th May 2003, 00:44
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Raw,
You take the flack well.
respect

I sincerly hope all works out for you and the rest .
My comments are not intended to be taken as harshly as some might think they are.

Yes I have a few things I dont agree with but thats all I have to say.
Apart from EMB190's would be nice

Rgds K.I.L.
keepitlit is offline  
Old 18th May 2003, 00:46
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: england
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
K.I.L,
why get all vocal now about flybe..better to fade away in the current climate than make a name for yourself. In fairness to them they did give you a job when you 'left' BMI. At the time nobody else was hiring. Taking a career break rather than face redundancy was a particularly smart move on your part. But why are you going back early? I thought the BFS bus was crewed for the summer?
That aside, as you havn't flown a 'fisherprice' jet, don't knock it. It has it's good and bad points (more good) just like the bus.
carlos vandango is offline  
Old 18th May 2003, 01:28
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Exclamation

Your quite right I havent flown it,fisherprice is just a local nick nickname,like scud,ect no jib intented


Rgds
K.I.L
keepitlit is offline  
Old 18th May 2003, 01:44
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: 52N 20E
Posts: 713
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RD,

Lying by Management is unacceptable, period.

Being stitched up by Management is also unacceptable.
Although some seem to think other wise; as it appears to regularly feature in the MO of certain individuals, along with the frontal lobotomy.

Being "kind to the long term sick" is mandatory under current employment law.
6 months on full pay I think you will find as your starter for 10.

Boy am I looking forward to the Q500 (the 100+ seat, Pogo stick)

Have a nice day.

Last edited by Smokie; 18th May 2003 at 08:29.
Smokie is offline  
Old 18th May 2003, 03:39
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uk
Age: 59
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RD,

You remind me of an abused but loyal dog. It's master has pulled through the poor job climate and is still earning enough money to feed it daily but also gives it a good kicking every now and then.

....and my point is..... Just because you feed an animal doesn't give you the right to abuse it !

Firstly I fully understand what you are saying regarding Jim turning the airline around, I too am glad to still have a job and also do not have a great desire to work for Easy. Unfortunately it doesn't help matters when we hear rumours that the latest BALPA pay claim was ignored by Jim right up to the last minute and then only looked for a total of 15mins during the pay negotiation meetings before basically being ignored again.
As for the comment Re. communication and us contacting him - surely it is the job of a manager to motivate his/her staff which involves communication for him/her to their staff, not the other way round. You may well have a much better insight into the mind of our beloved leader than we do but perhaps that is because as management yourself, it is your job to communicate with him.


Come on JF, do us all a favour and give that dog a bone !

puddle-jumper2 is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.