COMPULSARY REDUNDANCIES AT BRITISH AIRWAYS!!

[M.Mouse]

OK speedcheck, I posted what I understood to be the facts. Perhaps rather than being gratuitously rude you would be good enough to share your interpretation of what happened?

[Secret Squirrel]

Sorry to hear that, Hovis, I really am.

Yes, it might well be me in Feb as I work from LGW on shorthaul. I may be mistaken but I was told that as from April all UK companies will have to comply with EU law and offer a minimum of 4 weeks statutory pay for every year worked. This is probably why they are making the offer now rather than later. Can anyone verify or dispel this tidbit of information?

[Diablo]

I am one of the many @ MAN. Letter landed today. It does only lay out those options. The biggest problem is the uncertainty. If the management had the balls to say "110 compulsary redundancies on 31st March", we could get on and work to that but they won't.

Another example of what we face, yes we have been offered jobs at CitiExpress around the country and on the IOM but because it is a BA subsidury, we don't get the severance, but because it is not British Airways Plc, we don't get relocation either, plus new contract date of joining and you have to leave the BA pension scheme for a money purchase scheme with CitiExpress.

Thin end of the wedge indeed.

[Joyce Tick]

Well Diablo - if enough people take the options you mention - then there wouldn't be any need for compulsories, would there? So why "come out" and say it if it's not necessarily true? We had the same problem recently and due to option takers, the number of forced redundancies was reduced by half.

Some wierdos (not necessarily you, Diablo)think that managers actually enjoy making people redundant - well I suppose it suits them to think that.

[Diesel]

Diablo, Let me get this straight. Because your relocation would be to a Franchise i.e part of BA there is no relocation assistance. BUT with regard to all other aspects of employment such as date of joining, pension, contract etc it is considered NOT part of BA?! Is that what you are saying? Can it be legal to have things so blatently both ways?

Good luck to you.

[Diablo]

Spot on Diesel. The crap we are being given is that because the BRAL and Brymon managers can't decide on a set of terms & conditions for the people who will form part of the merged operation (I think the change-over is end of March), they can't figure out what to do with any of us, and we have a lower priority. Also they are argueing the toss about who's budget any relocation would come out of. In the mean time we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

When Afghan airlines takes to the skies once more, I will be first in line with my C.V to get me as far from B.A. as possible.

Form an orderly que behind me. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[speed check]

M.Mouse maybe i was being a bit OTT but the facts are the pilots funded nothing it all.It all came from company funds and that is fact!.You make out that the B.A. pilot force are a giving bunch.If Balpa hadn't been so gready the classics would still be flying out of LGW today instead EAC will make a nice tidy profit and good luck to them. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Notso Fantastic]

Speed Check- you have an extraordinary nature! Without responding to insults, I will just state the facts:. . The BA pilot workforce agreed to fund the BA F/Es increased severance package above the new standard reduced package to the previously agreed arrangement cancelled subsequent to 9/11. . BALPA has not been greEdy! Considering we have taken the standard 2 year pay packages for umpteen years, along with all other staff, and have accepted BA's shenanigans with Scope and other agreements (Classic/777 bunks to name but two), I would say BALPA has been very co-operative.. . This is not the thread for you to air your prejudices. This BA pilot offers the personnel involved sympathy and best wishes.

[dumiel]

Secret Squirrel

I am not aware of EU directive on increasing minimum redundancy payments to that level and no doubt the CBI will fight such a bill to the death, however, government minimum redundancy payments are to be increased from £240 per week to £250 per week to take into account a cost of living expense this comes into force on 01st Feb 2002.

[Diablo]

Thanks for all the concern gents no really, I have been on this site for a long time and every topic that is raised just desends into a bunch of you having a go at each other. I think I am correct in thinking Hovis started this thread to publicise the fact that for the first time in the history of BA, they are going to make people REDUNDANT. This is the thin end of the wedge, beware.

Any constructive help on our plight would be most appreciated, but if you want to slag each other off start a new thread or go to jetblast, that is why it exists.

[HOVIS]

First of all, to all that offered sympathy, I thank you.. .For those that were er...shall we say a bit tactless, You asked for contempt, you got it!

To straighten a few things out, There are approx 100 staff at MAN now in possesion of "the letter".. .The jobs on offer number about 20, that leaves about 80 with no option but to take the severance.. .That is Compulsary in all but name.

If it is true that the pilots, through BALPA, funded the FEs better offer, then why have the company refused to negotiate a similar deal with the engineers through the AEEU/MSF (now AMICUS)?

There are other departments,(tug drivers, dispatchers, check in etc), working O/T at MAN that obviously require more personel, again this is "not for negotiation".

Why?

It takes years to train a licensed engineer, (longer than a pilot?) and almost as long to train an unlicensed technician, but a matter of weeks/months to train in these other areas. Surely it makes sense to hang on to the people that you have invested a lot of money in ready for the upturn.. .This in no way demeans the jobs of others it is just a fact.

The company are trying to have their cake and eat it when you consider the situation regarding relocation.. .If it is within the BA group surely it qualifies for the relocation package as stipulated in the employment guide.. .If it is not within the BA group then the severance package must apply, which way is it?

The handfull of jobs at BHX are a JOB SWAP with no relocation, I know some in the south think that "up north is just up north" but relocating to BHX will cost!!. .There are engineers willing to go, whether it be Fraggle Rock, BHX or GLA but they just cannot afford it. Negative equity still exists in many areas, I cannot sell up buy a new house on a lower wage and still be paying off what I owe from the last place. It is economics, nothing more.. .The same applies to jobs at LHR, but we are not even being offered those!. .Similarly, the job swap option is only available at BHX, Why?

As for the unpaid leave, part time working etc that was offered to everyone in the company post 11/9 that has been ruled out for all at BA MAN Engineering.

Why?

The staff at MAN are not being beligerent, pig headed or bloody minded.. .They are just fed up with being treated like provincial yokels "who do not understand"(words of IR manager Karen E at a recent meeting at MAN).

By the way, The original announcement that the MAN hangar was to close and that a total of 120 were surplus was made on 5TH September 2001.

Spleen vented, thank you!. . <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: HOVIS ]</p>

[GE 90]

We seem to be suffering from Accountancy overload. It may be the way things are happening outside the industry but why should that be how it is done inside. If we lose any more engineering experience (like MAN) we will not be able to keep the aircraft in the air. . .The way BA treated the Cityflier engineers that were coming over caused many of them to seek employment elsewhere. Now we have the situation of 14 days to change an engine. That is because we lost 5 engineers. Not many as a percentage of total engineers at LGW but that is how accountants see us. . .Now that you have seen what can happen to engineers what will happen to pilots. After all we have a requirement for X pilots so who cares what they can fly?

[screwdriver]

Who can feel anything less than outrage at what our colleagues in MAN are having to endure. It seems to me that, even though this would seem to be a case of departmental mismanagement, the writing is on the wall for the rest of us. The "Wet one" and his accolyte "the Peeved" will surely fall after this debacle!. . . .HOVIS--Whatever the Flight Engineers secured as a severance is entirely incidental to your predicament. If their pilot colleagues financed an enhanced severance then so be it. End of story. Remember, that as a licensed aircraft engineer you are probably more valuable in the job market than a flight Engineer. They will struggle to find work in the long term but you, god willing , will be ideally placed come the inevitable upturn.. .Support from BALPA? BALPA looks after IT'S membership and rightly so. Flight crews pay a premium for representation (1% of basic) and get the appropriate representation. Perhaps we all get the representation we deserve!. .Finally, to those employment law experts who SEEM to have all the info on compulsory redundancy payments--Is not the weekly wage figure quoted a MAXIMUM as opposed to a MINIMUM?

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: screwdriver ]

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: screwdriver ]</p>

[whatbolt]

DIABLO/HOVIS regretably this is not the first time that compulsary redundancy has been used.

[HOVIS]

WHAT BOLT. Er.. I think you will find it is. Within BA there has never been compulsary redundancies, that is why many have accepted an inferior pay packet in exchange for job security!!!. .Part of the problem in trying to sort out a predicament such as the one at MAN is that there is no precedent and therefore policy is being made on the hoof with the consequencies as already mentioned.

If you can give an example of compulsary at BA in any dept please do and I will publicly stand corrected.

[Banzai Chap]

Hovis

Good luck, i wouldn't go to BHX if i where you.. .Don't forget BA is in the process of shafting BA Staff at BHX as well with the merger of BAR into BRAL. This means in effect that they will be offered T+C's on BRAL rates not BAR. This is. .not against any BRAL Pilots but i'm sure they'd get the hump if they got merged into Airline X with less generous T+C's. . .Its cust another accounting exercise against what was a dedicated workforce.

[basil fawlty]

screwdriver,. .E/O's will struggle to find work will they?. .Let me tell you that I'm still an employed flight engineer, but the time will inevitably come in the not too distant future when I shall have to find alternative employment. I will NOT have the benefit of a £100k+ severence package. Many F/E's will not find flying jobs again, but I understand that Tescos recruit on an on-going basis, plenty of work around if you look for it! Are you saying that the ex BA F/E's shouldn't have to go out and do an "ordinary" job like millions of other people? I hope I don't, but I am prepared to do so if I need to.

[whatbolt]

HOVIS-in the summer of 1990 two men were instructed to attend a meeting at which they were told the manning levels had been changed and that they were no longer required. Neither were given any prior warning of the purpose of the interview. Both men had 25 years service and approx 7 years left to normal retirement. They were told that because of their age redeployment would not be an option. Both were then taken to the next office where their severance packages awaited them. I know of other similar cases .

[HOVIS]

What bolt. .That is still not exactly compulsary redundancy in the eyes of the law.. .If they were offered a severance package then they signed a declaration to the effect that they left employment "of their own free will".. .IE they volunteered to leave.

By the way, If they had 25 years service then back in those days an uncapped severance would be very nice indeed! . .I would certainly go now if I was offered the same arrangements.

Thanks for the gen anyway!

[screwdriver]

Basil Faulty. .I should have said that all F/Es will struggle to find work as F/Es in the future. Good luck when the time comes. Did they really get £100+K.